Sound Practices Mailing List Files - Volume 2
=========================================================================
From: "P de R. Leclercq" <triode@freenetname.co.uk>
Subject: [JN] L63/6J5s on ebay
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:36:35 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n878
A quick plug: I am selling three nicely-matched S/H Marconi L63s.
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1140978538
Thanks,
PAul
=========================================================================
From: "Carter Hendricks" <carter@i1.net>
Subject: [JN] lab power supplies
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 11:01:47 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n405
I think I'll go back to a local shop tomorrow or
tuesday and pick up a Hoefer PS 1200. It is
adjustable for voltage & current in increments
from 0 - 1200 VDC & 0 - 325 mA. It came from
a microbiology lab at Monsanto.
1. Does anyone know anything about this
particular power supply?
2. Does anyone want the 2nd one [yes there
are two].
--Carter
=========================================================================
From: "Leonard Scheepsma (ETM)" <Leonard.Scheepsma@etm.ericsson.se>
Subject: [JN] lab power supplies
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:20:48 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n406
Carter,
Sorry, I saw that "the system" has taken away my email address from my previous answer, so that's wh
y this re-send.
Leonard
Carter,
Could use such a device, but how large and heavy is this? (the costs for shipping from the US?? to E
urope will probably be stratospheric sais my intuition!)
And what's the price in the shop, and, most important, does it support an main voltace of 230 VAC 50
Hz instead of 120/60?
regards, Leonard
- -----Original Message-----
From: Carter Hendricks [mailto:carter@i1.net]
Sent: zondag 16 januari 2000 18:02
To: sound@lists.io.com
Subject: [JN] lab power supplies
I think I'll go back to a local shop tomorrow or
tuesday and pick up a Hoefer PS 1200. It is
adjustable for voltage & current in increments
from 0 - 1200 VDC & 0 - 325 mA. It came from
a microbiology lab at Monsanto.
1. Does anyone know anything about this
particular power supply?
2. Does anyone want the 2nd one [yes there
are two].
--Carter
Leonard Scheepsma
Business Development Manager
Ericsson Radio Systems AB
Torshamnsgatan 33 Kista
SE-164 80 STOCKHOLM
Sweden
Tel.+31-161-242711, Fax. +31-161-242663, GSM. +31-6-5474-6331
E-Mail: leonard.scheepsma@etm.ericsson.se
=========================================================================
From: Christian Rintelen <rintelen@datacomm.ch>
Subject: Re: [JN] lab power supplies
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:59:05 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n406
Leonard
many US lab power supplies have mains transformers with two 117 V primaries in parallel that can be
hooked up in series for 234 V (like my Fluke 407). If the
mains transformer can't be wired for 230 V, just get a 230:115 V transformer (not expensive). Proble
m is that the mains transformers are designed for 60 Hz.
Connected to a 50 Hz power grid, they normally hummmm mechanically (like my Fluke 407...). (The magn
etic flux at 50 Hz is 20 151096gher than with 60 Hz. Most of
the 60 Hz transformers can't handle this.)
Christian
"Leonard Scheepsma (ETM)" wrote:
> Carter,
> Could use such a device, but how large and heavy is this? (the costs for shipping from the US?? to
Europe will probably be stratospheric sais my intuition!)
> And what's the price in the shop, and, most important, does it support an main voltace of 230 VAC
50 Hz instead of 120/60?
> regards, Leonard
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carter Hendricks [mailto:carter@i1.net]
> Sent: zondag 16 januari 2000 18:02
> To: sound@lists.io.com
> Subject: [JN] lab power supplies
>
> I think I'll go back to a local shop tomorrow or
> tuesday and pick up a Hoefer PS 1200. It is
> adjustable for voltage & current in increments
> from 0 - 1200 VDC & 0 - 325 mA. It came from
> a microbiology lab at Monsanto.
>
> 1. Does anyone know anything about this
> particular power supply?
>
> 2. Does anyone want the 2nd one [yes there
> are two].
>
> --Carter
>
> Leonard Scheepsma
> Business Development Manager
> Ericsson Radio Systems AB
> Torshamnsgatan 33 Kista
> SE-164 80 STOCKHOLM
> Sweden
> Tel.+31-161-242711, Fax. +31-161-242663, GSM. +31-6-5474-6331
> E-Mail: leonard.scheepsma@etm.ericsson.se
- --
Christian Rintelen Konzept und Text
Dufourstrasse 165 CH-8008 Zurich / Switzerland
Voice: +41 1 420 11 55 Fax: +41 1 420 11 57
mailto:rintelen@datacomm.ch
=========================================================================
From: "Leonard Scheepsma (ETM)" <Leonard.Scheepsma@etm.ericsson.se>
Subject: RE: [JN] lab power supplies
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 14:45:44 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n406
Hi Christian,
I wasn't sure it's American equipment anyway, "Hoefer" could sound German also...
See where Carter comes back with...
leonard
- -----Original Message-----
From: Christian Rintelen [mailto:rintelen@datacomm.ch]
Sent: maandag 17 januari 2000 13:59
To: Joelist
Subject: Re: [JN] lab power supplies
Leonard
many US lab power supplies have mains transformers with two 117 V primaries in parallel that can be
hooked up in series for 234 V (like my Fluke 407). If the
mains transformer can't be wired for 230 V, just get a 230:115 V transformer (not expensive). Proble
m is that the mains transformers are designed for 60 Hz.
Connected to a 50 Hz power grid, they normally hummmm mechanically (like my Fluke 407...). (The magn
etic flux at 50 Hz is 20 151096gher than with 60 Hz. Most of
the 60 Hz transformers can't handle this.)
Christian
"Leonard Scheepsma (ETM)" wrote:
> Carter,
> Could use such a device, but how large and heavy is this? (the costs for shipping from the US?? to
Europe will probably be stratospheric sais my intuition!)
> And what's the price in the shop, and, most important, does it support an main voltace of 230 VAC
50 Hz instead of 120/60?
> regards, Leonard
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carter Hendricks [mailto:carter@i1.net]
> Sent: zondag 16 januari 2000 18:02
> To: sound@lists.io.com
> Subject: [JN] lab power supplies
>
> I think I'll go back to a local shop tomorrow or
> tuesday and pick up a Hoefer PS 1200. It is
> adjustable for voltage & current in increments
> from 0 - 1200 VDC & 0 - 325 mA. It came from
> a microbiology lab at Monsanto.
>
> 1. Does anyone know anything about this
> particular power supply?
>
> 2. Does anyone want the 2nd one [yes there
> are two].
>
> --Carter
>
> Leonard Scheepsma
> Business Development Manager
> Ericsson Radio Systems AB
> Torshamnsgatan 33 Kista
> SE-164 80 STOCKHOLM
> Sweden
> Tel.+31-161-242711, Fax. +31-161-242663, GSM. +31-6-5474-6331
> E-Mail: leonard.scheepsma@etm.ericsson.se
- --
Christian Rintelen Konzept und Text
Dufourstrasse 165 CH-8008 Zurich / Switzerland
Voice: +41 1 420 11 55 Fax: +41 1 420 11 57
mailto:rintelen@datacomm.ch
=========================================================================
From: StepHydro@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] lab power supplies, Carter
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 06:40:38 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n406
In a message dated 01/17/2000 6:<BR32:<BR52 AM
Eastern Standard , Leonard.Scheepsma@etm.ericsson.se writes:
> 2. Does anyone want the 2nd one [yes there are two].
>
> --Carter
Carter,
If Leonard doesn't get that second one, and there isn't a backup buyer,
please note that I am standing behind him :-)
Please let me know at your convenience.
Cheers/Don Carron
Rockford TN
=========================================================================
From: "Epstein, Jeremy" <JEpstein@ndbcap.com>
Subject: [JN] Ladegaard arm operation info
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:50:43 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n757
Hey gang, just a quick observation about using the Ladegaard air bearing
tonearm. Tom Dunker's text correctly states that precise adjustment of level
is required for this to work properly.
I first implemented that with an adjustment scheme that allowed the carriage
to become out of parallel with the platter, in other words, the platter
might be slightly tilted when the carriage is perfectly level.
No good. Both MUST be in the same plane. Otherwise the platter can seem to
be slanted "downhill" with respect to the arm and the result is poor
tracking (as well as azimuth misadjustment.)
So once you have set your VTA with the height adjustment, you MUST make sure
the carriage is level with the platter. Then levelling of the carriage and
platter must be done together as a unit. In practice, it means that VTA is
better done with shims under the carriage than with a free adjustment. Or
some means of maintaining parallel with the platter must be combined with
the VTA adjustment, i.e., a parallelogram type arrangement.
Two little screw jacks (like the kind for your car but in ~1:20 scale) on a
common threaded shaft would be good - anybody know where these might come
from? Edmund Optics maybe?
- -j
=========================================
Jeremy Epstein........jepstein@ndbcap.com
=========================================
=========================================================================
From: "Epstein, Jeremy" <JEpstein@ndbcap.com>
Subject: [JN] Ladegaard Arm Progress Report - it works!
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 10:18:58 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n749
Hey! I got it working! Pretty well, too!
Last night I mounted my Ladegaard air-bearing linear tracking tonearm to my
Teres turntable and got it up and running and playing music for the first
time.
Thanks to everyone who helped in the development of this project, especially
Tom Dunker for championing it so enthusiastically - it really is a supremely
elegant and straighforward design.
My initial impressions are tempered by the fact that I am using my #3
cartridge to preserve the better ones as I hack around with this (gotta
install some sort of cuing lever/arm rest!) Nonetheless, the sound is very
promising. In particular the midrange seems more transparent and bass is
very strong. The upper range of the sound is probably compromised by the
cartridge at this point but it is certainly not BAD - a little rough though.
This is all without a precise adjustmant of VTA or even tracking angle.
Certainly I expect to make improvements as I lock in the cartridge
alignment, which should be pretty straightforward given the limited number
of variables. The lateral bearing works perfectly as does the knife-edge,
just as one would hope.
Sometimes you gotta laugh, though.
I set the arm up and was playing the first record, so I triumphantly called
my wife downstairs to witness the historic event. She was properly
congratulatory, and then asked, "Why is it going backwards?" "Huh?" I asked
her, in my most perceptive manner. "The record looks like it is going
backwards, it's coming at the needle instead of going away from it."
In my laser-sharp focus on my work I had managed to mount the tonearm on the
wrong side of the spindle, and was indeed tracking the cartridge backwards.
I had to remove the brackets and start all over. How embarassing! But Ellen
made me promise to admit it, so there it is. Tracked fine anyway, BTW, the
linear bearing doesn't seem to care at all, an interesting experiment FWIW.
I wonder how well a linear bearing would survive the "scratching" of a DJ.
Some other pitfalls I was able to overcome:
I was suffering from inadequate lifting capacity at first, which I traced to
a poor seal between the perforated part of the V-channel and the bottom-most
piece of V-channel. Double-stick tape (the ~1/16"-thick, "foam" kind) is
inadequate for this purpose, at least it was for me. What I ended up doing
was using some small (1/8" x 1/4") pieces of double-stick at the four
corners to locate the two V's with respect to each other, then sealing
around all the edges with silicone caulk. I hate silicone caulk. (All this
comes, of course, after making the perforated tapes for the air outlets and
attaching them to the inside of the perforated V-channel. I used Mylar tape
sealed with PVC electrician's tape - perfect.)
Another thing I did to increase lift (well, increase the effectiveness of
such lift as I was able to get) was to reduce the weight of the
tonearm/carriage asssembly. I removed the edges of the "carriage" V-channel
where they protrude above the peforated V-channel, and I removed about a
third of the lead counterweight and slid it further away from the fulcrum to
compensate. I will weigh the various parts when I get a chance - the days
when I had a triple-beam-balance on my coffee table are long, long gone.
I am getting sufficient lift now although I wonder if I will be able to add
any more mass to the carriage (to tweak the vertical mass vs. the horizontal
mass) or if I am on the edge of capacity. I am using a Top Fin 50 Gallon
aquarium pump with two air outlets which I got from Petsmart.com for 15
bucks.
https://www.petsmart.com/products/product%5F850.shtml
The pump's two air outlets feed two hoses that lead into a small smoothing
tank made of 1" PVC pipe, and a 3rd hose emerges from that tank to feed the
arm. I used the 1/4" tubing from an icemaker installation kit and the
associated fittings to make a screw-on attachment to the bottom-most
V-channel. This pump makes a little bit of noise, audible from across the
room during very quiet passages or silence, but I have made NO efforts to
muffle it yet. I feel confident a rubber bag surrounded by a felt bag will
work well, provided I don't block the air intake. There is also some hiss
from the air outlets in the arm mount itself but I doubt I will hear that
from across the room once I get the pump quiet.
I built adjustable mounting brackets for the arm very easily using brackets
intended for hanging shelves to the wall, the horizontal portion is about
10" long and mates with a special U-channel which has slots pre-cut into it.
The only mods I had to make were to enlarge the slots slightly to accept a
6/32 bolt, and to secure the channel to the bracket with screws because the
bracket is used to support the channel in my installation and they are
designed to do the reverse. I will probably epoxy this assembly together
later. The slots now provide a very easy means of vertical adjustment which
serves to provide a VTA adjustment and an adjustment to get the air bearing
exactly level. I probably should get the air bearing exactly parallel with
the record surface and then level the whole shebang together but for now
this works, admittedly there is room for azimuth inaccuracy in this setup as
it stands.
I used the Radio Shack 30ga. Kynar-insulated wire-wrap wire for tonearm
cables. I carried twisted pairs all the way to RCA plugs, plugged into my
RIAA preamp. The influence of the wire, at least this wire, on the mechanics
of the tonearm seem to be a total non-issue. I am having a feedback problem
when the tonearm cable gets too near one of my speaker cables, I get a
massive motorboating oscillation in that channel after I turn up the volume
past halfway, I may try shielding the last part of the cables and certainly
rerouting them. I may be able to put the RIAA preamp a bit closer to the
turntable at some point, too, and shorten the tonearm wires somewhat. I have
no ground whatsoever at the turntable/cartridge end (the twisted 30 ga.
pairs run straight into the input of the 1st RIAA stage, one side gets
grounded there, one side feeds the grid via a small stopper) and I have no
hum. But I worry about the static-discharge problems Tom Dunker warned us
about. The stopper may need to be increased, the whole thing might be RF
parasitics I suppose.
Unlike our colleague Jonathan Carr, I do not feel comfortable making my own
cartridge, nor do I make speaker drivers like Messrs. Danley and McKinney,
so I think I have my system almost about as DIY as I'm going to get it: DIY
arm, turntable, RIAA, line stage, power amp, and speakers. The CD is
store-bought, I guess if I ever listen to it again I can try building one of
those. Each part still presents opportunities for further refinement, I'll
keep you all posted of course.
- -j
=========================================
Jeremy Epstein........jepstein@ndbcap.com
=========================================
=========================================================================
From: Thomas Dunker <dunker@invalid.ed.ntnu.no>
Subject: [JN] Re: Ladegaard Arm Progress Report - it works!
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 12:36:20 +0100 (CET)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n754
Hey Jeremy, congrats with the working arm. I hope you've been enjoying
this little project as much as I did.
There's one thing I realize that I forgot to mention, now that you bring
it up:
> grounded there, one side feeds the grid via a small stopper) and I have no
> hum. But I worry about the static-discharge problems Tom Dunker warned us
> about. The stopper may need to be increased, the whole thing might be RF
> parasitics I suppose.
I experienced a tendency for a static electricity buildup between the
floater and the air hole rail, which would discharge causing loud pops.
I solved this problem by connecting the two parts electrically with a
thin, flexible wire so they remain at the same potential. I just used
sticky tape to connect the bare wire ends at some convenient spots on the
metal surfaces.
Otherwise, the air flow along the not-quite mating surfaces causes a
slight friction and you get a kind of Wimshurst-machine type rubbing
effect that polarizes the charge. By shorting this "capacitor" the problem
is solved.
Thomas
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
_/\_ Thomas Dunker \ The Horn Speaker Home Page:
/ \ P.O.Box 2811 \ http://invalid.ed.ntnu.no/~dunker/horns.html
| | 7002 Trondheim \
| | NORWAY \--\ "Those with head above water
\____/ dunker@omegav.ntnu.no \ see only the tip of the iceberg"
|||| phone: (+47)73911068 \ (Gene Dalby)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
From: "Epstein, Jeremy" <JEpstein@ndbcap.com>
Subject: [JN] Ladegaard Arm Progress Report - Night 2
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 09:22:07 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n749
OK, I couldn't stand the suspense listening to Cartridge #3 (a real shoddy
piece of crap) so I installed #2, a still-cheap 29 dollar Grado which
nevertheless sounds great and is what I have been listening to since
building my Teres. (I am waiting until I put the heavy tools away before I
install my more expensive Grado.) I have a base of comparison going back a
few months with this cartridge in an inexpensive conventional arm (the
Australian Radio surplus arm sold by David Crittle.)
Well, the Ladegaard arm is clearly better - better detail, better extension,
better dynamics, better Downward Dynamic Range as Allen is fond of calling
it. It betters the conventional arm's performance compared to the two spots
where the conventional arm is at its null points, everywhere on the disc,
all the way to the lead-out groove. This is a very striking improvement
compared to any conventional arm I have ever heard - these always have some
degradation at the end of a side. But the linear tracker is competely immune
from this and this is very cool indeed.
But the WAY cool thing: I just cannot believe how good 7" 45's sound using
this arm. Obviously, one could expect big things from these little discs due
to the faster spin and the sometimes wider pitch, but since a conventional
arm geometry is almost always set up for LP's, the tracking is rarely
optimized for 7" 45. Well, the linear arm throws this out the window. I put
on a torture record to test the tracking ability, a Pringle-shaped warped 45
of the Valentinos' "It's All Over Now" (it's the only copy of this rarity
I've ever been able to find, what can I tell you?) and was completely bowled
over. Not only did the arm track the disc well, but the sound was far
superior to the CD transfer I have of this cut - it was absolutely
fantastic. It became clear that I have been missing a lot of sound from my
45's all these years, and that I will be playing them more often now. An
excellent surprise!
I still have a motorboating problem when I turn up the volume (which is in
the circuit after the line stage) which I am puzzled by. I tried changing
the first grid stopper at the input of the RIAA stage (because I always
first suspect parasitics are at the root of these things, given that I have
had them in several different circuits) to a 10X larger value, but this did
not solve the problem. It is triggered by handling the tonearm cables, I
guess this puts LF on the input and starts the ball rolling. I can tell that
the motorboating is occurring in the RIAA stage because I can see the gas
regulators flashing on and off when it gets to be its worst. I guess I
really DO have power-supply decoupling issues here then, and so I will
install an additional pi filter to the first RIAA stage. Pain in the ass to
fit any caps here but I guess I need 'em. I'll try some 100uF TSHA's and
maybe a 5k resistor for a first swipe at it. I have spare B+ voltage to burn
anyway (running at 300V) so it won't be a problem to drop it a little.
What are the odds my gas regulator tubes are themselves at the root of the
problem, and need to be swapped out?
- -j
=========================================
Jeremy Epstein........jepstein@ndbcap.com
=========================================
=========================================================================
From: "Jan Hass" <jh@hifi-analyse.dk>
Subject: RE: [JN] Ladegaard works!
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:56:20 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n749
Hi Jeremy
Congratulation with the promising results of your efforts with the Ladegaard arm. There are still ma
ny details that needs attention i guess. But I think its great that the arm is preforming so well in
the first, or was it second set-up - and even works in reverse !! How about a picture ??
greatings Jan Hass
=========================================================================
From: AnnaLogg@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Lady Anna & Gentle Joes
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 14:43:22 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n772
Thanks you Kurt -- the gentleman, as always, to remember my presence here in
such a lovely way. And my best wishes to all for wonderful music throughout
the new year.
xoxo
Anna (Joe-sephine :-)
=========================================================================
From: "Kurt Steffensen" <kurt-steffensen@teliamail.dk>
Subject: [JN] Lady Anna & Gentle Joes
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 22:18:59 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n772
Year 2000 has been a good year to our virtual society.
Many , many interesting issues has been discussed in a usually good spirit.
But maybe must important , a lot of Joes met one another - face to face - in the internaional Triode
Festival
in Denmark.
This has without doubt , meant a lot to us all , and it will bring fruits for many years to come.
Do you remember last year , at this time of the season ?
Holocaust and Y2K horrors was predicted... Planes and elavators were bound to crash in huge amounts
...
Hospitals and other life important enterprises would experience loss of energy , and machines would
turn of...
Maybe a handfull of people in the world , did not belive in these Y2K
tales. I was happy to be one of them. Easy to say efterwards , but I postet against it a week before
the feared date..
Now we have the true year 2000 shift. ( 1-2001 = 2000 years)
This means that we should espect total disaster in a few hours....
It has been predicted by religions , famous men and other interesting books for hundreds of years. M
aybe even milleniums.......................
Will it then be true this time ?
I would not count on it.... We human beings needs things to belive in.
And I have the deepest respect for your religion and urge to have something to hold on to.
But I am afraid that the real danger comes from our self..
We are so impressed by the knowledge and innovative skills of mankind , that we can hardly see the w
ood for
trees.
We ought to just take one step to the side , and see what mankind have achieved in its time...
We kill one another in mass. We accept that 60.000 children die from hunger , every 24 hour.
Every minute , a new machine or product is made , that will pollute nature , or in other way destroy
the quality on this little blue fragile planet.
And though we still do not fully understand the most basic physics of nature , we do not hesitate to
play with atoms and gene technique.
Well , I do see the good things man do... But I think that there is to few of them.
What on earth is it that is so important and has so much rush , that we can not allow ourselfes to j
ust stop up , for a minute , clean the room , and take care that the neigbours child do not have to
die from hunger..?
We have plenty of food for everybody. Education and a new world order would solve the most urgent pr
oblems.
The rest is up to the goodwill from you and me.
But I fear , that we give up , even before we start. I can allready hear all the political and pragm
atic arguments.
What a vaste....
I hope year 2001 will be a good one to you , me , Joelist and the world.
Keep them vacuums lit , and lit a light for PEACE....
Happy New Year , - my friend.
Yours truly - Kurt Steffensen
=========================================================================
From: Dan Marshall <mdaniel7@uswest.net>
Subject: [JN] Lafayette parts needed
Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 14:32:36 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n939
Yo,
I have a Lafayette integrated tube amplifier, LA-236 or LA-250, they
look the same. It has those strange little maroon-colored knobs with
dual knobs on the bass/treble controls. Some knobs are missing, so if
anyone is parting out a Lafayette amp, or receiver, with the same knobs,
I sure could use a few exact replacements. Thanks. I can reference an
eBay pic to show what it looks like.
Someone had one of these listed on eBay a while back and was commenting
on how exceptionally good it sounded with all Telefunken tubes, claiming
that it bettered most very well-regarded amplifiers of similar
heritage. Mine came with three Tele 12AX7s, then I bought a quad of
Telefunken EL86s on eBay for 10 or 12 bucks, so I would like to
resurrect this thing, tweak it in, and see whether this be so.
Dan Marshall
=========================================================================
From: TUBEBUYER@aol.com
Subject: RE: [JN] Lafayette parts needed
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 18:33:00 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n940
I need a couple also, after Dan finds his.
Thanks,
Rick
I have a Lafayette integrated tube amplifier, LA-236 or LA-250, they
look the same. It has those strange little maroon-colored knobs with
dual knobs on the bass/treble controls. Some knobs are missing, so if
anyone is parting out a Lafayette amp, or receiver, with the same knobs,
I sure could use a few exact replacements. Thanks. I can reference an
eBay pic to show what it looks like.
=========================================================================
From: Robert C Chambers <rchamber@norwich.edu>
Subject: [JN] "Lambda 755"
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:52:18 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n448
On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, Nicholas McKinney wrote:
SNIP
> PSPS - I hate to open a can of worms, but I am also working on a "Lambda 755"
> driver for those that might be interested.
>
> Nick
Hi Nick-
No can of worms - I, and I suspect others too, will eagerly await your
announcement of its availability! Is this in your first quarter of 2000
time slot?
Regards,
Robert
=========================================================================
From: Paul Butterfield <paulbutterfield@mindspring.com>
Subject: [JN] Lambda Acoustics & E-mail
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 16:16:01 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n931
Hi folks,
Had a long telephone conversation with Nick yesterday, and he has given
me permission to share some of it with you-
It will come as no surprise to some of you that Nick is becoming
notorious for not answering e-mail. There are two reasons for this —
first, he has less and less time for correspondence because his business
is consuming a more and more of his time. Secondly, his e-mail server
done blowed up good. Crashed and burned it did, with such verve and
malevolency that that neither the techietrolls at Eudora, nor the
protogurus at Mindspring can figure out how to fix it. So Nick has
'fired' both of them and is in the process of buying and installing new
e-mail software.
Yea!
Paul B
- --
Paul Butterfield
Central Florida Audio Society
TAD 2001 Recovery Project
Orlando (Winter Park) Florida, USA
paulbutterfield@usa.net
paulbutterfield@mindspring.com
407/645-1111 Voice number
407/647-1177 Voice/Data
"Those who hear not the music think the dancers mad."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
=========================================================================
From: TubeGarden@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Lambda Acoustics & E-mail - an Option
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 16:36:40 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n931
- --part1_7f.17a65800.288f3658_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Greets!
Use snail mail and buy the TD15M drivers and build or buy a box and listen.
Mine are mounted in 80 Hz ehorns, thank you Bruce, and everything I play
sounds better than ever before. Anywhere. Well, except, maybe, the Baltimore
Civic Center auditorium in the late sixties... went to see Janis Joplin and
that guy who imitated John Belushi and the Paul Butterfield Blues Band and
could hear perfectly in the cheap seats. Biggest horn array I have ever seen
hanging from the ceiling... wonder where it is now...
Nick is finding out what happens when your products really put out... you
work all the time.
I used to work, but, I honestly like listening better. Imagine :)
I sometimes do miss my mind, but, ....
Thanks, Nick!
Happy Ears!
Al B^}
- --part1_7f.17a65800.288f3658_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT SIZE=2>Greets!
<BR>
<BR>Use snail mail and buy the TD15M drivers and build or buy a box and listen.
<BR>
<BR>Mine are mounted in 80 Hz ehorns, thank you Bruce, and everything I play
<BR>sounds better than ever before. Anywhere. Well, except, maybe, the Baltimore
<BR>Civic Center auditorium in the late sixties... went to see Janis Joplin and
<BR>that guy who imitated John Belushi and the Paul Butterfield Blues Band and
<BR>could hear perfectly in the cheap seats. Biggest horn array I have ever seen
<BR>hanging from the ceiling... wonder where it is now...
<BR>
<BR>Nick is finding out what happens when your products really put out... you
<BR>work all the time.
<BR>
<BR>I used to work, but, I honestly like listening better. Imagine :)
<BR>
<BR>I sometimes do miss my mind, but, ....
<BR>
<BR>Thanks, Nick!
<BR>
<BR>Happy Ears!
<BR>Al B^}
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>
- --part1_7f.17a65800.288f3658_boundary--
=========================================================================
From: Paul Butterfield <paulbutterfield@mpinet.net>
Subject: [JN] Lambda Acoustics sub(woofer)-First Listening arranged
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 12:13:20 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n319
Hi Thorsten, Luc, Magnus -
I'm considering auditioning/ordering one of his drivers, so I have been
keeping up with the posts concerning Nick McKinneys' (Lambda Acoustics) subs &
woofers, RE Faraday rings, prototypes, and extended frequency
response/extended inductance, so I have arranged to go over there today to
listen to the subwoof he has on his webpage at:
www.lambdacoustics.com/products/drivers/prototype.html.
I will post a report with my opinions soon.
Paul B.
- --
Paul Butterfield
Squeaky Chair Recording Studio
Central Florida Audio Society
Winter Park (Orlando) FL USA
407/645-1111 Voice number
407/647-1177 Voice/Data
=========================================================================
From: Paul Butterfield <paulbutterfield@mpinet.net>
Subject: [JN] Lambda Acoustics sub(woofer)-First Listening arranged (LONG)
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 13:11:11 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n323
Hi Magnus, Joe's, Bassers -
I had the opportunity to have an extended afternoon and early evening
listening session over at Lambda Acoustics with Nick’s prototype sub earlier
this week. The 12 inch sub was in a box (about the size of a 19 inch
television, or the size of a countertop microwave) with two of his 15-inch
passives on the sides.
My opinion? Bottomline: I ordered three of the drivers, one 10-inch for
mono/center channel use, and two 15-inch for a high efficiency system I’m building.
Nick has built a 12 inch extended range sub that has a clean midrange. Not the
muddy midrange that is sometimes associated with subs and woofers, (like in my
Vifa M26WR’s) but one that reproduces music well. We listened to Sgt. Peppers
‘Lovely Rita,’ ‘When I’m 64’ - the 1812 Overture - Branford Marsalas - The
Fairfield Four - Jack Teagarden - The ‘opera’ cut from the movie, The 5th
Element - Jurassic Park Lunch - and conga music smuggled out of Cuba. In
summary, the bass & upper bass harmonics were (excuse the popular parlance) -
fast, Fast, FAST! (Ahhh, sorry, couldn't help it) and the driver reproduced
bass that was solid and tight in the lower octaves. But don’t take my word for
it. Listen to it.
One can wax poetic, and use all the glittering audiophillia generalities
available in the lexicon of the audio reviewers’ double edged pen, but, alas,
I’m not a glossy mag stereo reviewer, so I’ll spare you the effuse pomposity,
and just describe the speaker. The driver Nick's building has an elegant motor
design - with a very large whole-pole (including gap) copper Faraday cylinder
for flat inductance, an aluminum cast basket with side vents, a 2-inch
edgewound copper ribbon voice coil on a Kapton and Nomex former, a Nomex
spider, a poly cone with a treated/dampened surround, 5-way binding posts,
heavy duty tinsel lead out wire that is both crimped and silver soldered to
the voice coil lead in wire. No dustcap, but the driver will be utilizing a
solid billet aluminum anodized phase plug. Tight tolerances throughout. All
this adds up to a design with lower distortion, faster transient response, and
an actual frequency response extending to the higher treble range. It does
have a treble bump around 1.5k that will have to be notched out, and the
treble got a little clipped and ragged out beyond 9k-10k. But, as Nick
reminded me, Its only a *Sub*...
But again, do not take my word for it. Listen to his sub yourself if you are
going to be in Orlando area.
Magnus, FYI, the 10 inch driver I ordered is for a three channel
stereo/mono/center channel system I’m building. The other two woofers I
ordered for this system will be 15 inch extended range high efficiency woofers
with a curvilinear paper cone derived from an Altec design (same as in the
10"). These drivers will be designed for low power high impedance tube (PP,
SE) and solid state high impedance amps, such as the Pass Zen. But, I will
have to wait until next year for those. <grump, grump> So, all three drivers
will be similar in design - in order to integrate into a three channel system
- - three Lambda drivers to mate with three TAD 2001 horns. Woof! So much fun!
Some of the preliminary information is at the website-
www.lambdacoustics.com/products/drivers/prototype.html.
Comments appreciated, and while critical comments are appreciated as well,
flames are ignored.
Yours in music,
Paul
- --
Happy Ears!
Paul Butterfield
Consulting Producer; Overland Productions
Squeaky Chair Recording Studio
Central Florida Audio Society
Winter Park (Orlando) FL USA
407/645-1111 Voice number
407/647-1177 Voice/Data
=========================================================================
From: Paul Butterfield <paulbutterfield@mpinet.net>
Subject: [JN] Re: Lambda Acoustics sub(woofer)-First Listening arranged (LONG)
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 13:06:25 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n324
Hi Claude,
Claude Dickson wrote:
>
> Paul:
>
> I talked at length with Nick of Lambda and heard the 12" woofer over the
> phone. I could not believe how well this single driver was reproducing
> Diana Krall's voice!
>
> Before the flames start, I cannot verify what I was listening to nor can I
> verify the quality of bass over the phone. However, I CAN tell you that if
> it really was a single 12" driver, it was playing MUCH higher than any other
> 12" driver that I have EVER heard!
I can verify that when I was over at Lambda, Nick did indeed play his sub over
the phone to another. (Actually, he quite delights in this!) Hearing his sub
played over the phone was what prompted me to come over and listen to it. In
my case, he played some Louis Armstrong cuts over the phone. <big grin> Also,
at Lambda, we listened to most of the Diana Krall album on his one sub, and
although it did pretty good job on her voice, it reproduced the acoustic bass
rifts of the Krall album quite believably. As to how accurate, cannot say, but
we plan on a session to A/B the sub with my old Kay upright acoustic bass.
Will record same Kay upright bass with Neumann 190 to 15 IPS analog or DAT for
playback - Now, *that* will be a fun listen.
> If this driver is as good as he claims, we will all have to re-think our
> designs. These woofers have the potential to greatly expand the range of
> 2-way designs. For example, this driver could allow for a 2-way design
> using either the Raven R1 or R2 with one of these drivers. Previously, such
> a design would have required the MUCH more expensive R3. The only problem
> Nick identified is beaming at higher frequencies.
Rethinking already. I'm going to hear what a 2-way combo Lambda driver with
TAD 2001 will do. Hopefully by the end of the year. Some fun, eh?
> For those of us who are space challenged, he is working on two designs of
> interest. One will use the 10" driver with two 12" passive radiators in a
> sealed enclosure of 1.0 cu. ft. He claims this design will go down to 20Hz.
> Another will use the 12" driver with two 15" radiators and will go down
> even lower!
During one of Nick's tests several weeks ago, I could see (and hear) the 12"
driver doing around 20Hz. It was fed a 20Hz sine from a HP generator, with
about a 1 to 1.25 inch excursions - we left for lunch (about an hour) and when
we returned, Nick stopped the test, and stuck his finger on the VC, and
remarked, "Not even warm!". I did same, and he was correct, it was not even
warm. One of the advantages of the copper Faraday I suppose?
> Of course the proof is in the pudding, but I am cautiously very excited
> about these woofers!
Likewise cautious. After I get the driver(s), I will want to listen to them
for about a month before I comment fully on extended listening impressions.
Next Saturday a group from the Central Florida Audio Society and the Tampa Bay
Listening Society will have a chance to listen to the same sub I have, or
maybe two...
Paul
Happy Ears!
"Those who hear not the music think the dancers mad."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul Butterfield
Consulting Producer; Overland Productions
Squeaky Chair Recording Studio
Central Florida Audio Society
Winter Park (Orlando) FL USA
407/645-1111 Voice number
407/647-1177 Voice/Data
=========================================================================
From: Nicholas McKinney <nick@lambdacoustics.com>
Subject: [JN] Re: Lambda Acoustics sub(woofer)-First Listening arranged (LONG)
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 13:32:26 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n324
At 12:08 PM 11/6/99 -0800, Claude Dickson wrote:
>Paul:
>
>I talked at length with Nick of Lambda and heard the 12" woofer over the
>phone. I could not believe how well this single driver was reproducing
>Diana Krall's voice!
Yes, she does have such a nice voice. I use her recordings frequently for
voice reproduction. The bass is always a bit too plump IMHO, but that
seems to be a Doug Sax signature.
>Before the flames start, I cannot verify what I was listening to nor can I
>verify the quality of bass over the phone. However, I CAN tell you that if
>it really was a single 12" driver, it was playing MUCH higher than any other
>12" driver that I have EVER heard!
It was a single 12" poly cone "sub", and why I haven't posted any frequency
response graphs.
I would be attacked with so many emails from people saying I was lying I
would never get any work done at the shop. I will wait until testing is
done by others.
You can look at the pictures of the impedance graph at the website to see
what is going on. The area from where the phase crosses the 0 mark (about
200hz or so) to the point where it goes 45 degree positive is very wide.
First the 200hz point is quite high to begin with for a "subwoofer", then
the 45 degree point is up around 8Khz. The NHT 45 degree point is at 1Khz
to give you an idea.
Also this graph can be repeated for a much larger xmax of the driver than
is typical, something that is really hard to accomplish. This one
specification IMHO determines more of the "sound" of the driver than
anything else when you play it "loud". Those that own Scanspeaks and
Dynaudios know this trick, the drivers do not change their sound much when
you really crank the volume.
I always wanted a subwoofer to match, I had to build my own to get what I
wanted.
>If this driver is as good as he claims, we will all have to re-think our
>designs. These woofers have the potential to greatly expand the range of
>2-way designs. For example, this driver could allow for a 2-way design
>using either the Raven R1 or R2 with one of these drivers. Previously, such
>a design would have required the MUCH more expensive R3. The only problem
>Nick identified is beaming at higher frequencies.
Well there is this 1~2Khz cone edge resonance, I have lowered it some with
a generous coating of damper.
(Very generous)
You also still have Doppler problems, so the high frequency limit will be
partly set by the xmax you have on the driver as well.
(I am envisioning an array for myself)
>For those of us who are space challenged, he is working on two designs of
>interest. One will use the 10" driver with two 12" passive radiators in a
>sealed enclosure of 1.0 cu. ft. He claims this design will go down to 20Hz.
> Another will use the 12" driver with two 15" radiators and will go down
>even lower!
Well, the designs are such that you can use lighter PR and keep the Spl
smooth to 20Hz, but then the phase change is not so smooth. Or you can use
heavier PR and raise the F3 to get the phase change smoother.
The PR xmax still set the limit for the bass output below 20hz. Hoffman's
Law is still intact. The larger box is 3dB louder than the smaller one, it
doesn't really go any lower.
Nick
Nicholas McKinney
Lambda Acoustics Inc.
www.lambdacoustics.com
=========================================================================
From: Nicholas McKinney <nick@lambdacoustics.com>
Subject: [JN] Re: Lambda Acoustics sub(woofer)-First Listening arranged (LONG)
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 19:39:08 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n324
At 12:41 PM 11/7/99 -0800, Claude Dickson wrote:
>Nicholas:
>
>Are you thinking in terms of a sealed or dipole array? Personally, my
>concern about a sealed array would be the size of the enclosure required.
>We spoke about 2 cu. ft. for a single 12" driver with two 15" PRs. An array
>of four 12" drivers would take 8 cu. ft in a sealed enclosure is huge!
For myself it would be a PR type array.
I was playing the Mercury recording with the 1812 and I think Wellington's
March? Anyway it is the one with all the smaller guns going off.
I want to make that more realistic, I am short on Spl with the one cabinet.
With the array you gain alot of cabinet volume with the height.
Two of those acting as L&R channels, now that would be fun...............
>A
>dipole configuration would be one solution, but you need to get the Q up to
>about 1 for it to work well.
I posted a few days ago about a motor designed just for dipole use. I
don't have it here at the house though. I could resend it if you need.
Nick
Nicholas McKinney
Lambda Acoustics Inc.
www.lambdacoustics.com
=========================================================================
From: Douglas Purl <dcp@selway.umt.edu>
Subject: [JN] Re: Lambda Acoustics sub(woofer)-Two Way Experiments
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 12:25:20 -0700 (MST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n325
On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Bob Stout wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Nov 1999 DennyDB@aol.com wrote:
>
> > I, for one, would be very interested in listing feedback on 2-way
> > systems built around the Lambda drivers. Perhaps a Manger, Newform-45"
> > ribbon, and Raven ribbon(s) could be brought over to Lambda Acoustics
> > for full range listening sessions. The extended frequency capability
> > of the Lambda might allow for simple crossovers which sum well without
> > much phase error.
>
> Based on the Lambda's reported high end, it would be a natural for using
> with a 1st-order Xover. The trick then would be selecting a treble section
> that had the same properties with the goal of realizing a symmetrical
> crossover. To me, this is a no-brainer - ribbons sound great but are
> fragile. Manger's. OTOH, work quite reasonably with 1st-order Xovers
> since they can easily handle the power requirements.
Much of the reasoning presented in this thread puzzles me. I have watched
this discussion proceed with nary a dissent to the notion that annulling
the self-choking characteristic of a large voice-coil will confer aught
but advantages in multi-driver systems. I cannot see the advantage of
running a 12" woofer with an ordinary tweeter, as some have proposed, and
certainly not with a first-order low-pass. Two octaves at least of image
shifting as the polar patterns of woofer and tweeter jigger augmentation
and cancellation. Since there is not the normal reactive rollout of the
woofer to assist shaping of the stopband skirt, I would think such a
driver would require electrical replacement of the missing mechanical
order to avoid a rather cheeky characteristic.
Moreover, good though it might be, this reactance-neutralized woofer
cannot be the ablest of partners to such as the Manger or to a line-source
"ribbon" in octaves where lambda induces woofer beaming. It is like
Eastwood continuing to grip the horse's reins at the point where the
damsel has succeeded in overcoming his aversion to female flesh.
Let's put this mystery to bed.
Doug Purl
(And Bob, there were eight carboned addresses on your reply; you must scan
the carpet in your home office and at least do some partial vacuuming.)
=========================================================================
From: Nicholas McKinney <nick@lambdacoustics.com>
Subject: [JN] Re: Lambda Acoustics sub(woofer)-Two Way Experiments
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 19:38:00 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n325
At 12:25 PM 11/8/99 -0700, Douglas Purl wrote:
>I cannot see the advantage of
>running a 12" woofer with an ordinary tweeter, as some have proposed, and
>certainly not with a first-order low-pass. Two octaves at least of image
>shifting as the polar patterns of woofer and tweeter jigger augmentation
>and cancellation.
The dispersion was never mentioned to be good, as a matter of fact I seem to
remember saying the driver "beams like a flashlight". I don't know of any wide
range driver be it woofer based, midbass based (Lowther, etc), ribbon, planar,
horn, or otherwise that has a polar pattern a multiway cone and dome speaker
system would be proud of. You realize your compromises, and choose accordingly
IMHO.
>Since there is not the normal reactive rollout of the
>woofer to assist shaping of the stopband skirt, I would think such a
>driver would require electrical replacement of the missing mechanical
>order to avoid a rather cheeky characteristic.
It is this reactive roll out that causes the worst sound problems. There is
where standard inductance varying drivers are at their worst. This new driver
can actually get closer to "textbook" xovers because of this feature. It does
not need the copious extra filtering to prevent it from spewing a garbled mess
higher in frequency. Remember that the crossover point just defines the point
at which the 2 drivers give an equal power out, it doesn't mean that the driver
with the low pass is cut off with a brick wall. However, people using them are
more than welcome to filter as hard as they choose.
>Moreover, good though it might be, this reactance-neutralized woofer
>cannot be the ablest of partners to such as the Manger or to a line-source
>"ribbon" in octaves where lambda induces woofer beaming. It is like
>Eastwood continuing to grip the horse's reins at the point where the
>damsel has succeeded in overcoming his aversion to female flesh.
And what drivers are?
Smaller 7" midbasses?
The same ones with large amounts of distortion trying feebly to reproduce the
octave from 100~200hz?
In my opinion, when we don't face compromises in a speaker system, is when the
perfect one has been made. I won't bank on it being invented anytime soon.
IMHO, I have just opened a whole new world of compromises.
Nick
Nicholas McKinney
Lambda Acoustics Inc.
www.lambdacoustics.com
=========================================================================
From: Nicholas McKinney <nick@lambdacoustics.com>
Subject: [JN] Re: [LambdaDrivers] Re: Arrays
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 17:52:55 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n339
At 01:57 PM 11/20/99 -0800, Claude Dickson wrote:
>From: "Claude Dickson" <bogieworf@hotmail.com>
>
>This strikes me as an awful expensive way to get good vertical dispersion.
>Given the quality (and cost) of your drivers, there would have to be an
>extremely compelling reason to do this array. It is not clear to me what
>that reason would be. As pointed out, even at $100/driver and a 5 Bessel
>array, we would be talking about a $1,000 worth of drivers. Given the
>quality of your drivers, expect the cost would be closer to $2,000. I agree
>with everyone else, this is not a project to invest a lot of money into. I
>just can't see the return. However, like everyone else, I'd love to learn
>the results.
Yeah the cost was what caused me at first to think it was a crazy idea. I
am estimating more like $1100 for the 12 drivers though in a matched set.
However, when I ran some numbers the 6 drivers have a net voltage
sensitivity of 98.7dB with a 2.83V input and a minimum impedance of 5.3
ohms. The F3 for the combination I did was 75hz in a sealed box. It would
also take about ~500W to get the drivers out of xmax above 80Hz.
Those are serious numbers to consider. With the gap needed between the
drivers, and the dispersion characteristics of the array, it is a
theoretical match for the Raven ribbons.
Can we say home theater from hell?
Nick
Nicholas McKinney
Lambda Acoustics Inc.
www.lambdacoustics.com
www.onelist.com/community/LambdaDrivers
=========================================================================
From: John Niven <jn@cypress.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Lambo , Porche and my Cobra
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:21:07 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n555
Miroslav Kubala wrote:
>
> Hi Stefano
>
> I love cars I can drive daily...AND I LOVE TO BE HAPPY.
When I arrived in California the best thing I found was a 1971 VW
Karmann Ghia. It was cheap, rust free, and original. I loved this car,
to me the perfect fusion of German engineering and Italian style, but
it's rare in my home country (Great Britain). I know it's just an
upmarket beetle really but you can have fun for little $'s. It surprises
me how many people want to tell you of the time they had one.....
I drive mine daily, do my my own repairs, and call her Miranda, gettit?
How about we convert this thread to how to get the best auto sound?
My Ghia has a cheap 4 channel radio/cassette, the front pair go to some
full rangers I had, and the rear channels go to a single DVC 6.5" driver
in a closed box. I need more power (not the engine - if your daily
commute averages 18 mph you don't need a big engine :-)
John
=========================================================================
From: "Miroslav Kubala" <mikubala@swissonline.ch>
Subject: [JN] Lambo , Porche and my Cobra
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:59:51 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n555
Hi Stefano
I love cars I can drive daily...AND I LOVE TO BE HAPPY.
A Lamborghini Diablo ( I have it driven myself from Bern to Frankfurt ( 400
km ) is NO
fun. Behaves like a truck and hot horror in the city - O.K. nice to look
at.
Perhaps good for ami-roads you drive 55 miles but not here on superfast
small roads .
I have also the posibility to drive a Ferrari Testarossa any time I want. No
space for
your legs inside , the interior looks shitty ( NO Aston Martin quality )
All these Italian cars , and we have quite a lot of these here in
Switzerland , are the
whole time in repair.
PHHha..
They are nice to look at but thats all.
No more Daytonas ,NO MORE THE OLD MAGIC what a pitty.
The TVR I like much better but english quality....
Porsche - yeah technicaly perfect , but NO soul , kind of steril .NO Ornella
Mutti - kind of Marlene Dietrich
- - and sorry , Marlene !
Thats a diffrence between a CONSTRUCTED german car and a CHAOTIC EXITED
CONCEPT
of a italien car.
AND : the most people here in Europe hate you because of the car.
> That said, I've been a Lamborghini customer for years and I've always been
a
> Porsche owner and enthusiast; I think you can translate this kind of
> enthusiasm, in this context, as a Sonus Faber and EMT user. The latest
> Porsche 996 Turbo is just like a EMT950: a technological overkill that
makes
> you wonder what on hell can they do next, to improve on a similar
> masterpiece.... I drove it hard for a few hundreds kilometres, in Spain,
and
> was really impressed. No, awed.
>
> No kit car, please. Back to your 911s. Better, safer, more stylish....
O.K. my Cobra is a kitcar in some way , He/she is build by profs. with swiss
specs and swiss quality , no rattle , you can use it every day
and I will. The suspention is with Konis , you can even have Porsche Turbo
breaks on it if you want.
300+++++ horsepower with Kenny Bell supercharger, 500+++ torque , 850 kg
more with me in ;-) )
A sound that makes Chateau Petrus / or old Cheval Blanc of your blood.
AND you dont need to drive 280 km/hour to feel great.
My wife drives a 5- series BMW - too perfect for me.And she hates Alfa Romeo
since the last Berlina 2000 I had years before.
When I drive with the Cobra here everybody smiles at me - the oldfashion
look , nothing to show off.
NO stripes on my car.
NO Porsches.
NO Ferraris.
I want to sleep in my garage on Conolly leather , look at the Smith ( NO
ORIGINAL - but I dont care ) instruments
and fall in sleep with the sound of the hot exhaust cooling down.
Mirko
P.S,
I sold my EMT already - like the old Thorens better
I know my opinion is WERY subjective right in the moment. It rains inside
...but also in a Lambo.
> Ciao
>
> Stefano
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Norman Luttbeg <nluttbeg@politics.tamu.edu>
> To: Steven <stevensl@mindspring.net>; <sound@lists.io.com>
> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 4:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [JN] deep in love..in a Cobra
>
>
> >
> > Moments of regret. I once drove a Cobra 289 for a week and really loved
> the
> > experience. It was for sale for $3900, and I offered $3500!!! I probably
> > would have ruined it as I would have had to drive it to work daily in
> > Tallahassee. I have seriously thought of replicas, but I wonder if you
can
> > ever go back.
> >
> > The only car I have driven which approaches the feel of the Cobra is the
> > Viper, but it is butt ugly and feels like a Chysler! I once drove a TRW,
> but
> > it was shortly after I totalled a Iso Grifo and was nervous during the
> > drive. I thought it was to confined and too subtle. I have owned several
> > Porches and have been in the new turbo under acceleration. Again while
> they
> > are great cars and I was very impressed, it was not the same feel.
> >
> > Enough, or I will end up buying a replica today.
> >
> >
> > Norm
> >
>
=========================================================================
From: Phil <tube@jump.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Lame Al's Lame Excuse :)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:55:47 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n985
TubeGarden@aol.com wrote:
> I look marvelous. I am not ugly, just sick.
>
> Happy Ears!
> Al B^}
Okay, Al, since you say so, I believe you, but ...
Anyone with a sense of humor as outrageous as yours has got to be
SERIOUSLY twisted somewhere!!! (hate to think where ...)
Sure hope I get to meet you someday. And listen to the stereo!
Until then I'll just continue to look forward to reading your posts --
or
whatever they should be called.
Thanks for the laughs!
Phil
=========================================================================
From: TubeGarden@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Lame Al's Lame Excuse :)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:57:13 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n985
- --part1_111.611f9ba.28e613f9_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 9/28/01 7:08:23 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
rconte@attglobal.net writes:
> If you are disabled, can't work, probably have family, how you get paid,
> welfare, how can you afford amplifiers, find time to build or is your
> tweaking therapy from the bed...Curious, no malicious intention...but
> why not work at a job?
>
Hi Rich,
I have CFS, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Some unknown agent has turned my blood
supply down to minimal. I did Heparin (blood thinner) test for a month a few
years ago. For two days I could think clearly and remember things. It passed,
never happened again.
I was a software guy. I got sick on a business trip to Argentina in 1997. I
have private Long Term Disability insurance. Since I paid for it with after
tax dollars, it is tax free now.
Yup. I build circuits in bed. Keeps me sane. Well, sometimes, a little less
crazy :)
My wife has been disabled since 1994. Different disease. Lightening strikes
where ever and whenever it damn well pleases.
I do this Internet stuff flat on my back in bed. My monitor hangs face down
from the ceiling. Lately I have perked up, I lie on my side for this 'net
stuff.
I can operate upright for an hour or three. Not regularly, but 2 to 4 days a
week. I do the shopping for food and meds.
I am getting better, but sooo slowly. The first year or so I couldn't finish
brushing my teeth.
I still have an engineer's bad attitude about wonderful product concepts from
Sales and Marketing.
Like a Texas sheep, I can hear a Product Manager's zipper from a mile away :)
Soft start. Making a preamp double as an extension cord. Colored glass tubes.
You know, bullshit :)
We are all free to do as we please, but, I did as others pleased for many
decades, no more.
OK, except for Wife and Mom and my DINK (Double Income No Kids) Son and his
Wife.
I look marvelous. I am not ugly, just sick.
Happy Ears!
Al B^}
- --part1_111.611f9ba.28e613f9_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated 9/28/01 7:
08:23 AM US Mountain Standard Time, rconte@attglobal.net writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px
; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">If you are disabled, can't work, probably have family, how you get paid,
<BR>welfare, how can you afford amplifiers, find time to build or is your
<BR>tweaking therapy from the bed...Curious, no malicious intention...but
<BR>why not work at a job?
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Hi Rich,
<BR>
<BR>I have CFS, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Some unknown agent has turned my blood supply down to mini
mal. I did Heparin (blood thinner) test for a month a few years ago. For two days I could think clea
rly and remember things. It passed, never happened again.
<BR>
<BR>I was a software guy. I got sick on a business trip to Argentina in 1997. I have private Long Te
rm Disability insurance. Since I paid for it with after tax dollars, it is tax free now.
<BR>
<BR>Yup. I build circuits in bed. Keeps me sane. Well, sometimes, a little less crazy :)
<BR>
<BR>My wife has been disabled since 1994. Different disease. Lightening strikes where ever and whene
ver it damn well pleases.
<BR>
<BR>I do this Internet stuff flat on my back in bed. My monitor hangs face down from the ceiling. La
tely I have perked up, I lie on my side for this 'net stuff.
<BR>
<BR>I can operate upright for an hour or three. Not regularly, but 2 to 4 days a week. I do the shop
ping for food and meds.
<BR>
<BR>I am getting better, but sooo slowly. The first year or so I couldn't finish brushing my teeth.
<BR>
<BR>I still have an engineer's bad attitude about wonderful product concepts from Sales and Marketin
g.
<BR>
<BR>Like a Texas sheep, I can hear a Product Manager's zipper from a mile away :)
<BR>
<BR>Soft start. Making a preamp double as an extension cord. Colored glass tubes. You know, bullshit
:)
<BR>
<BR>We are all free to do as we please, but, I did as others pleased for many decades, no more.
<BR>
<BR>OK, except for Wife and Mom and my DINK (Double Income No Kids) Son and his Wife.
<BR>
<BR>I look marvelous. I am not ugly, just sick.
<BR>
<BR>Happy Ears!
<BR>Al B^}
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>
- --part1_111.611f9ba.28e613f9_boundary--
=========================================================================
From: ldmoore@att.net
Subject: Re: [JN] Lame Al's Lame Excuse :)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 19:09:16 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n985
Al:
Hope ya continue to improve. I always enjoy reading
your posts. Keep it up!
L.D. Moore
=========================================================================
From: Rich Conte <rconte@attglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Lame Al's Lame Excuse :)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:38:04 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n985
Al,
I thought I was sending this to you privately, but again, I was just
curious, not being
mailicious...you are amazing...just goes to show what them tubes can do
for ya'
Hang in there and godspeed recovery.
Long time reader Rich Conte
Cheers...and honor among men!
TubeGarden@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 9/28/01 7:08:23 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
> rconte@attglobal.net writes:
>
> > If you are disabled, can't work, probably have family, how you get
> > paid,
> > welfare, how can you afford amplifiers, find time to build or is
> > your
> > tweaking therapy from the bed...Curious, no malicious
> > intention...but
> > why not work at a job?
> >
>
> Hi Rich,
>
> I have CFS, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Some unknown agent has turned my
> blood supply down to minimal. I did Heparin (blood thinner) test for a
> month a few years ago. For two days I could think clearly and remember
> things. It passed, never happened again.
>
> I was a software guy. I got sick on a business trip to Argentina in
> 1997. I have private Long Term Disability insurance. Since I paid for
> it with after tax dollars, it is tax free now.
>
> Yup. I build circuits in bed. Keeps me sane. Well, sometimes, a little
> less crazy :)
>
> My wife has been disabled since 1994. Different disease. Lightening
> strikes where ever and whenever it damn well pleases.
>
> I do this Internet stuff flat on my back in bed. My monitor hangs face
> down from the ceiling. Lately I have perked up, I lie on my side for
> this 'net stuff.
>
> I can operate upright for an hour or three. Not regularly, but 2 to 4
> days a week. I do the shopping for food and meds.
>
> I am getting better, but sooo slowly. The first year or so I couldn't
> finish brushing my teeth.
>
> I still have an engineer's bad attitude about wonderful product
> concepts from Sales and Marketing.
>
> Like a Texas sheep, I can hear a Product Manager's zipper from a mile
> away :)
>
> Soft start. Making a preamp double as an extension cord. Colored glass
> tubes. You know, bullshit :)
>
> We are all free to do as we please, but, I did as others pleased for
> many decades, no more.
>
> OK, except for Wife and Mom and my DINK (Double Income No Kids) Son
> and his Wife.
>
> I look marvelous. I am not ugly, just sick.
>
> Happy Ears!
> Al B^}
=========================================================================
From: Richard C Nevill <rnevill@is.dal.ca>
Subject: Re: [JN] Lame Al's Lame Excuse :)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 00:57:22 -0300 (ADT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n985
Rich, Al, et al
Nothing Al says should be keep off list. His reply's and general
observations and his way of saying things indicate a man we need to keep
around. Having now read about how severe his problems are and the fact
that he can keep a great face and voice to all of us makes me respect him
all the more.
Cheers Al
and to all joe's
Richard Nevill
who whines about his sore knee at the end of a day, but in reality is
pretty small potatoes.
On Fri, 28 Sep 2001, Rich Conte wrote:
> Al,
>
> I thought I was sending this to you privately, but again, I was just
> curious, not being
> mailicious...you are amazing...just goes to show what them tubes can do
> for ya'
>
> Hang in there and godspeed recovery.
>
> Long time reader Rich Conte
>
> Cheers...and honor among men!
>
> TubeGarden@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 9/28/01 7:08:23 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
> > rconte@attglobal.net writes:
> >
> > > If you are disabled, can't work, probably have family, how you get
> > > paid,
> > > welfare, how can you afford amplifiers, find time to build or is
> > > your
> > > tweaking therapy from the bed...Curious, no malicious
> > > intention...but
> > > why not work at a job?
> > >
> >
> > Hi Rich,
> >
> > I have CFS, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Some unknown agent has turned my
> > blood supply down to minimal. I did Heparin (blood thinner) test for a
> > month a few years ago. For two days I could think clearly and remember
> > things. It passed, never happened again.
> >
> > I was a software guy. I got sick on a business trip to Argentina in
> > 1997. I have private Long Term Disability insurance. Since I paid for
> > it with after tax dollars, it is tax free now.
> >
> > Yup. I build circuits in bed. Keeps me sane. Well, sometimes, a little
> > less crazy :)
> >
> > My wife has been disabled since 1994. Different disease. Lightening
> > strikes where ever and whenever it damn well pleases.
> >
> > I do this Internet stuff flat on my back in bed. My monitor hangs face
> > down from the ceiling. Lately I have perked up, I lie on my side for
> > this 'net stuff.
> >
> > I can operate upright for an hour or three. Not regularly, but 2 to 4
> > days a week. I do the shopping for food and meds.
> >
> > I am getting better, but sooo slowly. The first year or so I couldn't
> > finish brushing my teeth.
> >
> > I still have an engineer's bad attitude about wonderful product
> > concepts from Sales and Marketing.
> >
> > Like a Texas sheep, I can hear a Product Manager's zipper from a mile
> > away :)
> >
> > Soft start. Making a preamp double as an extension cord. Colored glass
> > tubes. You know, bullshit :)
> >
> > We are all free to do as we please, but, I did as others pleased for
> > many decades, no more.
> >
> > OK, except for Wife and Mom and my DINK (Double Income No Kids) Son
> > and his Wife.
> >
> > I look marvelous. I am not ugly, just sick.
> >
> > Happy Ears!
> > Al B^}
>
=========================================================================
From: dslagle@earthlink.net (dave slagle)
Subject: [JN] Lamhorn
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:01:23 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n024
hey,
looking for Robert, or anyone with his current email...
sorry for the bw...
dave
=========================================================================
From: Mark Donen <mdonen@bu.edu>
Subject: [JN] Lamhorn & Beauhorn
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 10:43:14 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n607
Hi
Does anyone have any views on the important substantive differences between these cabinets, or heard
both of them?
The Beauhorn is front loaded as well as backloaded obviously.
Thanks
Mark
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end
=========================================================================
From: dslagle@earthlink.net (dave slagle)
Subject: Re: [JN] Lamhorn & Beauhorn
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 12:07:06 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n607
hey bert...
whats the scoop on the AER driver?
you mention the beauhorn needs a tweeter? i thought the fronthorn was
supposed to help that?
plus with the added efficiency of the front horn, how does the bass keep
up... specially if you add a tweeter, i know the cabs are big, and they
rear fire so corners can be used, but still...
i agree with you on the lamhorns, they have a very nice sound.... robert, i
know you are luking... do you have any thoughts on the AER's?
dave
=========================================================================
From: "Bert Doppenberg" <LCH@lowther.nl>
Subject: Re: [JN] Lamhorn & Beauhorn
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 17:40:29 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n607
Hi Mark,
> Does anyone have any views on the important substantive differences between
these cabinets, or heard both of them?
I haven't heard both of them, but related to my experiences with the different
approach, the Lamhorn with the AER will do a much better job! More extended
with a very nice balance! The beauhorn needs a tweeter on top but should have
very nice balanced mids if used with the DX3 (or EX3) and less congested used
with the DX4 (or EX4) driver. Both EX's used with the Beauhorn diffuser.
> The Beauhorn is front loaded as well as backloaded obviously.
Visual and audible two totally different horns!
Bert,
- ------
E-mail:
BD-Design : Sales@lowther.nl
Lowther Club Holland : LCH@lowther.nl
Homepage : http://www.lowther.nl
Oris 150 : http://www.lowther.nl/wwwpages/opinions.html
Phone/Fax : +31 341 254500 Mobile: +31 6 51242990
=========================================================================
From: "T. Loesch" <ezee_e@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Lamhorn & Beauhorn
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 17:56:23 GMT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n607
Hello,
>you mention the beauhorn needs a tweeter? i thought the fronthorn was
>supposed to help that?
Nope. And the Beauhorn does not neccesarily need either tweeter or
subwoofer. With a DX3 it will manage 50Hz - 16kHz with about +/-3db under
1/3rd Octave averaging....
However, if like me, you regulary drink your Batear Powder Tea and
occasionally have the Elephantine Smash, you will appreciate the 25Hz - 50Hz
and 15kHz - 35kHz additions from a Visaton Subwoofer and Supertweeter.
>plus with the added efficiency of the front horn, how does the bass keep
>up... specially if you add a tweeter, i know the cabs are big, and they
>rear fire so corners can be used, but still...
It's simple. The rear Horn is what is usually called "Hyper Exponetial" or
"Hyperbolic". It is really a true 100Hz Horn and uses the Floor reflection
(as it fires rear/downwards) to extend down to 50Hz....
BTW, my Goodmans Axiom based Box using DDDLLQD (Dual Driver Dynamic Loading
for Low Q Drivers) manages the 2Hz -6db point without Subwoofer. But even
with the sublime Goodmans Axiom 80 handling the High Frequencies (and it
does that a lot better than the best Lowthers) I added a Motorola Dual
Piezotweeter set to -6db @ 20kHz crossover to entertain my neigbouring Bat's
and myself....
Later T
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
From: "Bert Doppenberg" <LCH@lowther.nl>
Subject: Re: [JN] Lamhorn & Beauhorn
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 21:08:21 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n607
Hi Dave,
> whats the scoop on the AER driver?
No scoop, talk to Robert Lamarre...
> you mention the beauhorn needs a tweeter? i thought the fronthorn was
> supposed to help that?
Yes, Lowthers used with the bulb diffuser or other big things in front of it
makes the top frequencies (the tonal balance) dissapear by spreading the
energy. A front horn helps the driver in the low-mids.
> plus with the added efficiency of the front horn, how does the bass keep
> up... specially if you add a tweeter, i know the cabs are big, and they
> rear fire so corners can be used, but still...
You can make a front horn very efficient or less, lowering the resonance
frequency or move this up until you have found a certain balance...
Bert,
- ------
E-mail:
BD-Design : Sales@lowther.nl
Lowther Club Holland : LCH@lowther.nl
Homepage : http://www.lowther.nl
Oris 150 : http://www.lowther.nl/wwwpages/opinions.html
Phone/Fax : +31 341 254500 Mobile: +31 6 51242990
=========================================================================
From: "Robert Lamarre" <rlamarre@rlacoustique.com>
Subject: RE: [JN] Lamhorn & Beauhorn
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:03:27 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n608
Hi guys,
Yah Dave, I am lurking.
Basically Bert is right in saying that the AER is more balanced and soft
compared to the Lowthers.
The AER actually permits you to use silver wiring without any thinning of
the bass.
Actually better use copper for Lowthers and silver with the AERs.
I haven't heard the Beauhorns so cannot say which I like more.
Will be hearing the Hedlun Horn this week or next and plan to bring a pair
of AERs
with me. That will be interesting.
I will keep you posted on the Headlun DX2 VS AER shoot-out.
Regards,
- ---------- Robert Lamarre ------------
- ----- RL Acoustique, Canada -----
- ------- Ph/Fx: 450-653-3461 -------
- -- rlamarre@rlacoustique.com <mailto:rlamarre@rlacoustique.com> --
- ----- www.rlacoustique.com <http://www.rlacoustique.com> ------
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-sound@lists.io.com [mailto:owner-sound@lists.io.com]On
Behalf Of dave slagle
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 9:07 AM
To: sound@deliverator.io.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Lamhorn & Beauhorn
hey bert...
whats the scoop on the AER driver?
you mention the beauhorn needs a tweeter? i thought the fronthorn was
supposed to help that?
plus with the added efficiency of the front horn, how does the bass keep
up... specially if you add a tweeter, i know the cabs are big, and they
rear fire so corners can be used, but still...
i agree with you on the lamhorns, they have a very nice sound.... robert, i
know you are luking... do you have any thoughts on the AER's?
dave
=========================================================================
From: Garyj74@aol.com
Subject: [JN] Langevin Pots?
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:17:55 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n753
Can anybody tell me anything about these pots--Are they made by Daven, or are
they similar to the Daven pots?
The units are Langevin RCA-147273-4 Attenuators?
Thanks for your help,
Gary
=========================================================================
From: longrie@mmace.nrl.navy.mil
Subject: Langmuir Child Law was Re: [JN] EE101: Distortion canceling
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 15:57:28 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n749
From: Paul Joppa <pj@bottlehead.com>
>Subject: Re: [JN] EE101: Distortion canceling
>
>His small but excellent
>bibliography attributes this analysis to Langmuir (1913) and Schottky
>(1914); I believe Child discovered it experimentally around the same
>time but I can't find the reference.
Here are the references:
Child, C. D., "Discharge from Hot CaO," Physical Review, vol. 32,
pp. 492-511, 1911. Thermionic emission from calcium oxide.
Formulates laws of emission.
the Langmuir is from 1915
Langmuir, Irving, "The Pure Electron Discharge, and Its Application In Radio
Telegraphy And Telephony," Proc. IRE, vol. 3, pp. 261-293, 1915.
This is perhaps the first paper with an accurate understanding of
thermionic emisson. Clear reading in the modern scientific style.
Good review of prior work Provides references. Peer discussion is
included.
We have both of these papers in the tube papers collection.
regards
gary
=========================================================================
From: Allen Wright <AllenVSE@compuserve.com>
Subject: [JN] Language...
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:05:38 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n038
Christian asked:
> All you gotta do is learn some German. How can you live in Munich and not
> understand the people?!? ;-)
Easily! One of the reasons I do not/have not learnt the language is that
without it it's almost a meditation to be in a public place like the U-Bahn
(subway) - and not have to be automatically & unwillingly involved in all
the private/personal (& often BS) conversations going on around...
I can't read the 99% bad news garbage in the papers/TV - advertising
doesn't bite into me as intended by people such as you unless it has great
graphics, and generally it a relief not to get swept along with the mass
agreements of the population.
When in an English speaking country it is not the same - there is more
participation but much less meditation.
Another reason is that I'm pretty lazy unless motivated by something that
really interests me - like great music, tube amps, fast cars...
Allen (VSE)
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: [JN] Language...
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:15:14 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n039
Allen,
I note from your add in SP#16 that you speak little German: you sell
"feinsilber foil".........
Guido
At 10:05 10-2-99 -0500, Allen Wright wrote:
>Christian asked:
>
>> All you gotta do is learn some German. How can you live in Munich and not
>> understand the people?!? ;-)
>
>Easily! One of the reasons I do not/have not learnt the language is that
>without it it's almost a meditation to be in a public place like the U-Bahn
>(subway) - and not have to be automatically & unwillingly involved in all
>the private/personal (& often BS) conversations going on around...
>
>I can't read the 99% bad news garbage in the papers/TV - advertising
>doesn't bite into me as intended by people such as you unless it has great
>graphics, and generally it a relief not to get swept along with the mass
>agreements of the population.
>
>When in an English speaking country it is not the same - there is more
>participation but much less meditation.
>
>Another reason is that I'm pretty lazy unless motivated by something that
>really interests me - like great music, tube amps, fast cars...
>
>Allen (VSE)
>
>
=========================================================================
From: "Mackris, Thom G." <tgmackris@vicorpinc.com>
Subject: RE: [JN] Language as a second English
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:39:20 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n278
Most of Jeremy's culturally sensitive and "right-on" post was snipped, for
brevity, but I thought this part was worth saying AMEN to ...
Right on, Jeremy.
Thom
Jeremy keenly observed ...
I think the worldwide nature of our group is one of
its big strengths, let's not screw that up by being culturally
insensitive.
=========================================================================
From: Jeremy Epstein <jepstein@shwd.com>
Subject: [JN] Language as a second English
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 15:08:40 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n278
Snoopy, here's some English you might find useful : "Blow it out your
ass!" - a mildly irreverent expression of disagreement, with implied
good humor (but with an edge of seriousness.)
Use it when people get on your case for no reason (it also comes in
handy when driving) and keep on posting!
That's what I think.
By the way, those who replied to you were not (as far as I can tell)
criticising your post for commercialism, they were just getting silly
based on an ambiguity in something you wrote. By writing "scheduled on
Oct. 3 Sunday 1-5 p.m. at a private residence for SERIOUS audiophiles."
instead of, for example, "scheduled . . . at a private residence,
serious audiophiles only are invited to attend" it sounded like there
was "a private residence for serious audiophiles," kind of like a
retirement community or old age home for nuts like us. You have to admit
that would be a pretty funny place, albeit crowded (with horn speakers,)
overheated (with tube amps,) and loud.
In the US we don't seem to have quite the reverence for our elders that
you do, and many older Americans are shunted off into group living
situations instead of being cared for by their descendants in the family
home, as I understand is the practice where you live.
While we're on this subject, I would like to point out that there are
many on this list for whom English is a second language (any truth to
the rumor that Doug Purl learned his erudite vocabulary off of BBC World
Service?) and their contribution is, IMHO, essential to the best
enjoyment of this list for everyone else. Not only that, I feel safe in
saying their English is a whole hell of a lot better than our Dutch or
Cantonese, so let's give people a break - I mean, Kurt is always
apologizing for his English and he usually makes more sense than almost
anyone else here! I think the worldwide nature of our group is one of
its big strengths, let's not screw that up by being culturally
insensitive.
By the same token, please don't take offense where none is intended -
there is a lot of banter and joking on this list which I personally
really like, and I would hate to see that stifled. JoeNet attracts some
pretty quick wits from what I've seen. I personally have gotten in
trouble by being sarcastic in email, which sometimes falls VERY flat and
gets misinterpreted in unintended ways, and have had to learn to watch
what I say until I have built up a rapport with my correspondent. Even
then, I was able to commit a gaffe with someone who has been reading my
email for several years - it's easy to do.
- -j
- --
=====================================
Jeremy Epstein .... jepstein@shwd.com
=====================================
=========================================================================
From: "David B. Klein" <dklein@microtec.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Language as a second English
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:29:16
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n278
A 03:08 PM 9/14/99 -0400, Jeremy Epstein a écrit :
>By the way, those who replied to you were not (as far as I can tell)
>criticising your post for commercialism, they were just getting silly
>based on an ambiguity in something you wrote. By writing "scheduled on
>Oct. 3 Sunday 1-5 p.m. at a private residence for SERIOUS audiophiles."
>instead of, for example, "scheduled . . . at a private residence,
>serious audiophiles only are invited to attend" it sounded like there
>was "a private residence for serious audiophiles," kind of like a
>retirement community or old age home for nuts like us.
A pretty good one happened on the harpsichord list the other day. Someone
said, approximately, "I will be performing on an original fortepiano by the
German builder Kramer (Nov. 19, 1810). I had to break the news to him that
he'd let the concert date slip by on his schedule, and the audience had
been terribly disappointed.
dbk
=========================================================================
From: Rick Francis <rfrancis@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Language as a second English, danglers, 6DJ8s
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 22:35:21 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n278
> A 03:08 PM 9/14/99 -0400, Jeremy Epstein a écrit :
>
> >By the way, those who replied to you were not (as far as I can tell)
> >criticising your post for commercialism, they were just getting silly
> >based on an ambiguity in something you wrote. By writing "scheduled on
> >Oct. 3 Sunday 1-5 p.m. at a private residence for SERIOUS audiophiles."
> >instead of, for example, "scheduled . . . at a private residence,
> >serious audiophiles only are invited to attend" it sounded like there
> >was "a private residence for serious audiophiles," kind of like a
> >retirement community or old age home for nuts like us.
>
Amen, Jeremy, well put.
My favorite misplaced danglers are:
"I'd like a billfold for my husband that folds in the middle."
"I'd like some food for my baby that's strained."
On an audio note... was there some issue of Vacuum Tube Valley that
clarified all the different 6DJ8s? And is it true that all Amperex and
Siemens 9-pin tubes had the little ridges in the glass stemming from the
nipple? I'm serious, I'd like to know.
- --Rick
=========================================================================
From: David Barnett <davidbarnett@aristotle.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Language as a second English, danglers, 6DJ8s
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 02:33:44 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n278
On Tue, 14 Sep 1999 22:35:21 -0400, Rick Francis
<rfrancis@glasscity.net> wrote:
>On an audio note... was there some issue of Vacuum Tube Valley that
>clarified all the different 6DJ8s?
Issue #7
- --dnb
=========================================================================
From: "Mackris, Thom G." <tgmackris@vicorpinc.com>
Subject: RE: [JN] Language as a second English - What's Joelist?
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 12:13:53 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n279
Jean-Michel, Tung-cheung -
Regarding the decreasing quantity of technical posts on the list, I think
you're just witnessing a natural ebb & flow of activity. Everything in life
has its own rhythm which is just one reason why music appeals to all of us
so much.
Some of us Joes have outdoors interests in addition to our audio / music
hobby and with the outdoors season here in the Northern Hemisphere, I know
that many of my projects (as well as those my friends) are on "hold" for the
duration of the warm weather.
As valued gurus check out of the list, others check in. In my profession
(software engineering), we have a saying: "make peace with change". The
movement is not all away from the list - witness the fact that the brilliant
and humble Steve Bench has begun contributing. Since Steve is far too
modest to promote his web site, check it out at:
http://members.aol.com/sbench101/
I now finally understand how to work out load lines ... thanks Steve !!
Although I consider myself to be following in Jeremy's footsteps (as a guage
of my technical prowess), one day, I'll be able to contribute more
substantively to the group.
Best Regards,
Thom
=========================================================================
From: "Le Cleac'h J.-M." <lecleach@cgi.ensmp.fr>
Subject: Re: [JN] Language as a second English - What's Joelist?
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:50:02 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n279
> De : Snoopy <tcma@netvigator.com>
> A : Joenet <sound@lists.io.com>
> Objet : Re: [JN] Language as a second English - What's Joelist?
> Date : jeudi 16 septembre 1999 17:08
> 4. I feel getting lost in the Joelist some times......... Le Cleac'h
> J.-M., where are you???
Hello,
I am still by there and ready for positive discussion if any... (BTW nobody
asked me even one question about the screen driven tube used in my line
preamp, do new design are out of interest on the Joenet anymore?)
But to come back to the topic: as another guy for which English is not his
mother language, I want to say here that I understand very well Tung-cheung
MA's posts and find them informative.
About his post about Edgar, surely if I was at a shorter distance from the
showroom I surely would attend to a demo and I thank Tung-cheung MA for
having given the information...
Best regards,
Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h, Paris, France
=========================================================================
From: "Snoopy" <tcma@netvigator.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Language as a second English - What's Joelist?
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 23:08:09 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n279
Dear Jeremy,
Thank you for your reply. Thank really for pointing out the ambiguity
in something I wrote in my email. In response to your email and others, I
would like to clarify the following points:
1. My original email (of subject Edgarhorn - Demo & Email of ......) is
intended to let other people know the email address of Dr. Edgar and his
scheduled demo, NOTHING more. Many flamed wars originated from different
opinions, but I don't think the email should be flamed in any way because it
does not involve any specific opinion. If it is flamed just because there
is ambiguity in something I wrote, or it is written not up to standards, or
whatever, this is non-sense and stupid (sorry, I can't appreciate the
American humors here as I am receiving the Hong Kong/British-styled
education and coming from an entirely different culture.). If those people
can point out the ambiguity direct to me, NO problem and I will accept
wholeheartedly. Please be understood that the Cantonese and Chinese
(Mandarin) that I am using are totally different from the English that you
are using. The respond form a Joenetter called Joe Pledger says it all:
> I just got back to the list after a short break, and found a message from
> someone in HK (sorry I clean out the already read tray everyday...) about
> Dr. Edgar having a come listen schedule for the special horns. Then
someone
> else took great exception to terminology (or whatever) and flamed the
> person's message. So here you have a non-native English speaker (although
> quite well written) getting a couple flames for mentioning something that
> would be of interest to members within driving distance!! If the "Audio
> Police" are taking over the JN list, perhaps I should bail out too. I
> thought this was about music, and not some other agenda, or some strictly
> local groupie thing. Lets be respectful, or not comment at all.
2. I DO know that those people are not criticising my post for
commercialism, and my declaration in my another email (of subject Seeking
Advice on....) on being not commercial is originally meant to make things
simpler (but actually the converse).
3. In the above-mentioned email, what I am really meant to say that the
quality of Joelist is getting lower
and it's getting more "non-technical", "shallow" and "non-relevant"......
I think it's time to review how to maintain its uniqueness and restore its
quality.
4. I feel getting lost in the Joelist some times......... Le Cleac'h
J.-M., where are you??? And other humble guys with profound knowledge whom I
am missing? Of course the Joe-list is not exclusive for me, but my own
expectation from the Joelist is a more technical, respectful, elegant and
serious list, with discussions making sense, more relevant and up to the
point. Sound Practices are the greatest audiophile magazine (not meant for
everyone) to me, which are dedicated to music and truly high-ended musical
systems. I think the Joe-list should follow the direction of SP. Another
Joenetter wrote (without his prior consent, I don't want to mention his name
here):
> Hi, nothing wrong with you, I just think that many of the truly technical
> wizards have left ;-(
5. I do agree with you on your statement "the worldwide nature of our
group is one of its big strengths", but this is not enough.......
6. Cultural differences DO exist, so the American humors may be
"mis"-interpreted as other meanings by us who have non-English mother
tongue. But in my opinions, Sid Smith (contributing to the all-time classic
MARANTZ 7 pre-amplifier) and Paul Klipsch (a truly audio pioneer on horn
loudspeaker) are the audio people that we should RESPECT at all times.
Cultural differences DO exist, but what we should do is to respect the old
or senior people.
7. Most of the Joenetters are humble, honest and respectful. To my
views, manners/altitudes are more important than knowledges. Please be
respectful at all times.
8. Please excuse me for not saying up to the point on some occasions as
English is not my mother tongue. Bear in mind that I have to spend trible
effort in comprehending and writing correspondences in English as compared
with most of you. No matter in any language that I write my
correspondences, my principle is that I will double-check their content and
the wording so as not to hurt other people or cause any mis-interpretation.
9. For the time being, I would like to spend more time in setting up
Altec, Gauss, TAD horn speakers; building S.E. interstage transformer
coupled amps; driving my BMW car (a used car which I have just bought);
taking photos with my Contax A1 camera; internet eBay bidding; playing with
my ten Chinchillas; and making love with my lovely wife..... This email is
my last word on this subject, PERIOD.
10. Thank you for the bandwidth.
Best Regards,
Tung-cheung MA
16 September 1999 11:00 p.m. HONG KONG
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Jeremy Epstein <jepstein@shwd.com>
To: <tcma@netvigator.com>; Joenet <sound@lists.io.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 3:08 AM
Subject: [JN] Language as a second English
> Snoopy, here's some English you might find useful : "Blow it out your
> ass!" - a mildly irreverent expression of disagreement, with implied
> good humor (but with an edge of seriousness.)
>
> Use it when people get on your case for no reason (it also comes in
> handy when driving) and keep on posting!
>
> That's what I think.
>
> By the way, those who replied to you were not (as far as I can tell)
> criticising your post for commercialism, they were just getting silly
> based on an ambiguity in something you wrote. By writing "scheduled on
> Oct. 3 Sunday 1-5 p.m. at a private residence for SERIOUS audiophiles."
> instead of, for example, "scheduled . . . at a private residence,
> serious audiophiles only are invited to attend" it sounded like there
> was "a private residence for serious audiophiles," kind of like a
> retirement community or old age home for nuts like us. You have to admit
> that would be a pretty funny place, albeit crowded (with horn speakers,)
> overheated (with tube amps,) and loud.
>
> In the US we don't seem to have quite the reverence for our elders that
> you do, and many older Americans are shunted off into group living
> situations instead of being cared for by their descendants in the family
> home, as I understand is the practice where you live.
>
> While we're on this subject, I would like to point out that there are
> many on this list for whom English is a second language (any truth to
> the rumor that Doug Purl learned his erudite vocabulary off of BBC World
> Service?) and their contribution is, IMHO, essential to the best
> enjoyment of this list for everyone else. Not only that, I feel safe in
> saying their English is a whole hell of a lot better than our Dutch or
> Cantonese, so let's give people a break - I mean, Kurt is always
> apologizing for his English and he usually makes more sense than almost
> anyone else here! I think the worldwide nature of our group is one of
> its big strengths, let's not screw that up by being culturally
> insensitive.
>
> By the same token, please don't take offense where none is intended -
> there is a lot of banter and joking on this list which I personally
> really like, and I would hate to see that stifled. JoeNet attracts some
> pretty quick wits from what I've seen. I personally have gotten in
> trouble by being sarcastic in email, which sometimes falls VERY flat and
> gets misinterpreted in unintended ways, and have had to learn to watch
> what I say until I have built up a rapport with my correspondent. Even
> then, I was able to commit a gaffe with someone who has been reading my
> email for several years - it's easy to do.
>
> -j
> --
> =====================================
> Jeremy Epstein .... jepstein@shwd.com
> =====================================
=========================================================================
From: "Le Cleac'h J.-M." <lecleach@cgi.ensmp.fr>
Subject: Re: [JN] Language as a second English - What's Joelist?
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:35:37 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n280
- ----------
> De : Mackris, Thom G. <tgmackris@vicorpinc.com>
> A : 'lecleach@cgi.ensmp.fr' <lecleach@cgis0.ensmp.fr>; Snoopy
<tcma@netvigator.com>; Joenet <sound@lists.io.com>
> Objet : RE: [JN] Language as a second English - What's Joelist?
> Date : jeudi 16 septembre 1999 20:13
> Some of us Joes have outdoors interests in addition to our audio / music
> hobby and with the outdoors season here in the Northern Hemisphere, I
know
> that many of my projects (as well as those my friends) are on "hold" for
the
> duration of the warm weather.
Hello,
Well I am not sure that meteorology enlights the whole story...
> As valued gurus check out of the list, others check in. In my profession
> (software engineering), we have a saying: "make peace with change". The
> movement is not all away from the list - witness the fact that the
brilliant
> and humble Steve Bench has begun contributing. Since Steve is far too
> modest to promote his web site, check it out at:
> http://members.aol.com/sbench101/
It is an excellent website with a lot of most interesting things.
Congratulations to Steve!
> I now finally understand how to work out load lines ... thanks Steve !!
So you are ready now to improve that knowledge by new approaches do
describe or model tube's behaviour;
http://web.mit.edu/cheever/www/new.html
and:
http://web.mit.edu/cheever/www/h3.htm
Best regards,
Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h, Paris, France
=========================================================================
From: "PEARL Cust Serv" <custserv@pearl-hifi.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Language as a second English - What's Joelist?
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:37:17 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n280
Conrad Drake wrote:
> #Flame on! Flame on!
> Basically, because I, for one, missed it _entirely_ in the stream of
> shallow, offtopic and witless comments that appear between the HTML,
> images and (excessive) quotations which comprise this list.
> #flame off
There are a few people on the list who constantly burn my time with
their - largely - inane one & two liners.
I for one could really do well without having to continually trash these
comments.
In fact, there are a couple of people whose posts I simply trash without
reading . . .
> For those of you who care,
> a) trim your quotes
> b) hold your tongue
> c) turn off HTML
PLEASE ! ! ! ! !
> d) think before hitting "send"
> e) take it off-line (ie to private email) if you think it is _not_ of
> general interest.
Bill - PEARL
=========================================================================
From: Conrad Drake <conrad@directwest.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re: [JN] Language as a second English - What's Joelist?
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 10:51:02 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n280
sound-digest wrote:
> From: "Le Cleac'h J.-M." <lecleach@cgi.ensmp.fr>
>
> I am still by there and ready for positive discussion if any... (BTW nobody
> asked me even one question about the screen driven tube used in my line
> preamp, do new design are out of interest on the Joenet anymore?)
#Flame on! Flame on!
Basically, because I, for one, missed it _entirely_ in the stream of
shallow, offtopic and witless comments that appear between the HTML,
images and (excessive) quotations which comprise this list.
#flame off
For those of you who care,
a) trim your quotes
b) hold your tongue
c) turn off HTML
d) think before hitting "send"
e) take it off-line (ie to private email) if you think it is _not_ of
general interest.
For those of you in digest mode, check the SNR of the half dozen
messages following following M. Le Cleac'h's comment :-(
Conrad Drake
- --
Direct West Invs. Solutions for Embedded Systems.
conrad.drake@directwest.iinet.net.au (ph)+61 8 9285 1000
http://directwest.iinet.net.au (mb)+61 40 747 1611
12 Gayton Road, City Beach, WA 6015 AUSTRALIA
=========================================================================
From: SBench@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Language as a second English - What's Joelist?
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:42:38 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n281
In a message dated 99-09-17 03:53:40 EDT, lecleach@cgi.ensmp.fr writes:
<< So you are ready now to improve that knowledge by new approaches do
describe or model tube's behaviour;
http://web.mit.edu/cheever/www/new.html
and:
http://web.mit.edu/cheever/www/h3.htm
Best regards,
Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h, Paris, France
>>
Hi Jean-Michel,
Very nice presentation on those sites. Have you considered
a possible SPICE model that accomodates the tanh function
alluded to? I've noted that effect as well, but I've not been able
to find an adequate modelling function that holds up very
well for arbitrary bias and load conditions. The exact bias for
operation in the "valley" varies quite a bit from tube to tube,
so it is difficult to pre-establish the condition without "tuning"
for it.
Comments certainly appreciated.
Best Regards,
Steve
=========================================================================
From: Jeff Mai <jeffmai@kscable.com>
Subject: [JN] Large, early VOT for sale on eBay
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 22:24:44 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n205
Any Joes with an interest in vintage Altec VOT equipment should check this out:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=131364496
Too bad I'd never get it back here to KS from it's current home in western PA.
Apparently the owner really wants rid of it as there is no reserve.
I've no affiliation, of course. Just thought someone might find it
interesting.
Jeff
=========================================================================
From: James Melhuish <james@melhuish.org>
Subject: [JN] Larry and Chadd's Big Fun Horn
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:05:17 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n915
Hi All,
Just letting you all know that an article with images of Larry and
Chadd Moore's special big fun horn are up on the net:
http://melhuish.org/audio/diy33.htm
James
- --
James Melhuish
Single Driver Website http://melhuish.org/audio/
mailto:james@melhuish.org
=========================================================================
From: Mark Donen <mdonen@bu.edu>
Subject: [JN] Re: Larry Moore's amplifier dreams
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 08:09:45 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n616
Speaking to Larry Moore's ideas on engineering and amp building: isn't it
like this?:
What the engineer tries for is a "perfect" technical amplified reproduction
of a signal at the outputs. What this apparently "reasonable" idea
overlooks is that it misses what we are trying to do altogether.
Think of photography (Slagle?): a "good" photograph isn't one that
perfectly "reproduces" reality. Clearly this is a very simplistic
expectation to have for photography (abandoned it seems very soon after
photography was invented). You just have to laugh at the barbarity of this
idea. So why do some insist on it (or at least are we unable to give it up)
for music "reproduction"?
If your standard for a photograph is repoduction, you just don't get what
photography is. Even medical photography (clearly here we are not talking
art here) what we are doing is using a techinque to let us see what we
cannot see with the eye by itself. What we see is a perspective. It shows
us somethig there that isn't there of us. This isn't reproduction.
Obviously there are ways that photography may be improved technically. We
can have improved articulation in various parts of the spectrum, detail in
shadow and in highlights, higher resolution of detail etc. But none of
these in any way is going to be able to convince us that the photograph
reproduces reality. All of these are tools one can draw on to produce
photographs, not to reproduce reality. Photographs may appear to have a
truth but this is disclosed only in the photograph itself. This is the case
for art as well as scientific photographs.
Why can't we grasp that audio techniques, like photography, do not aim to
reproduce reality? Music from machines is a different medium. If you want
real live music, play it. But isn't audio really "audiography"? If not
applying the standard of one to one correspondence to photography has
allowed photography to develop as an medium in which there are many
orientations of taste and different kinds of techniques (not to mention
good and bad taste all over the place), let us try to free ourselves from
restrictive view of what is going on and to allow audio similar freedom to
develop. In a basic way, audio is not a reproduction, it is an event of its
own kind. Not a reproduction, but a production. This is what the word
technology means. It is a technique or a skill that produces. Even playing
the violin is a techinque, but what is produced by the violin is not
soemthing that you can have by itself without the violin. Same with the
machines we like. Let's abandon the idea that our machine must give us "the
closest approach to the original sound" or the "absolute" sound because
this idea is a prison in which we enclose the technique using audio.
Mark
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end
=========================================================================
From: Thomas Danley <Tom@ppci.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Re: Larry Moore's amplifier dreams
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 11:10:26 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n617
Mark Donen wrote:
> Speaking to Larry Moore's ideas on engineering and amp building: isn't it
> like this?:
>
> What the engineer tries for is a "perfect" technical amplified reproduction
> of a signal at the outputs. What this apparently "reasonable" idea
> overlooks is that it misses what we are trying to do altogether.
>
> Think of photography (Slagle?): a "good" photograph isn't one that
> perfectly "reproduces" reality. Clearly this is a very simplistic
> expectation to have for photography (abandoned it seems very soon after
> photography was invented). You just have to laugh at the barbarity of this
> idea. So why do some insist on it (or at least are we unable to give it up)
> for music "reproduction"?
Hi
Perhaps a better analogy would be to styles of painting or drawing as good photography is actually
two
different things mixed together. This is not a comment on the amplifier project however, anyone
actually doing something gets points in my book.
From the beginning of photography there has been a drive to eliminate all of the forms of optical
"distortion".
Fine grain film, compound, color corrected lenses and countless other developments have all been
implemented to make a more distortion free, more faithful image. Look at a good modern camera ther
e
are no examples I know of where a more "measurably distorted" engineering approach is used over a l
ess
distorted approach to solving the engineering problems unless governed by cost..
Even the Hubbell telescope needed corrective action when its mirror had too much "distortion" compar
ed
to "perfection".
On the other hand, take a very accurate high resolution tool like a good 4X5 or 8X10 camera in the
hands of an artist like the late Ansul Adams and you can get a work of Art. The artist imagines th
e
image, sets up the camera try's to use all the options available to make the best picture possible.
It
is his judgment in the composition and execution combined with an accurate, versatile tool and subj
ect
matter that makes a winning photo.
Here too is an example of resolution. Generally the larger the film size, the greater the resolution
,
seeing a giant format (I think it was 36 in by 36 in film) polaroid photo, (except for being at opti
cal
infinity and thus not 3D) would be passable as reality I think if presented properly.
>
>
> If your standard for a photograph is repoduction, you just don't get what
> photography is. Even medical photography (clearly here we are not talking
> art here) what we are doing is using a techinque to let us see what we
> cannot see with the eye by itself. What we see is a perspective. It shows
> us somethig there that isn't there of us. This isn't reproduction.
Seeing what the eye can't see your self first hand is technically called "imaging" and is not a good
analogy as what your trying see is not visible to the eye normally. In a reproduction system one is
trying to reproduce the performance as faithfully as possible, not to hear things that would not ha
ve
been audible if present at the original performance or recording session..
>
>
> Obviously there are ways that photography may be improved technically. We
> can have improved articulation in various parts of the spectrum, detail in
> shadow and in highlights, higher resolution of detail etc. But none of
> these in any way is going to be able to convince us that the photograph
> reproduces reality. All of these are tools one can draw on to produce
> photographs, not to reproduce reality. Photographs may appear to have a
> truth but this is disclosed only in the photograph itself. This is the case
> for art as well as scientific photographs.
Like sound reproduction, visual reproduction is still not the real thing but it is that way, not by
choice but by the limits on technical accuracy and cost.
>
>
> Why can't we grasp that audio techniques, like photography, do not aim to
> reproduce reality? Music from machines is a different medium. If you want
> real live music, play it. But isn't audio really "audiography"? If not
> applying the standard of one to one correspondence to photography has
> allowed photography to develop as an medium in which there are many
> orientations of taste and different kinds of techniques (not to mention
> good and bad taste all over the place), let us try to free ourselves from
> restrictive view of what is going on and to allow audio similar freedom to
> develop. In a basic way, audio is not a reproduction, it is an event of its
> own kind. Not a reproduction, but a production. This is what the word
> technology means. It is a technique or a skill that produces. Even playing
> the violin is a techinque, but what is produced by the violin is not
> soemthing that you can have by itself without the violin. Same with the
> machines we like. Let's abandon the idea that our machine must give us "the
> closest approach to the original sound" or the "absolute" sound because
> this idea is a prison in which we enclose the technique using audio.
Good goals but.... the problem is that it is too easy to modify a speaker or electronic gear and "he
ar"
a subjective improvement.
In every single case I have heard where an audible improvement is made AND there is an apparent
reduction in electronic accuracy (disregarding absolute levels, an increased difference between the
input signal and output signal), one will also be able to find other program material where the same
change causes an audible reduction in quality.
In other words, adding some type of anomalous behavior can often make some things sound better and s
ome
things sound worse. I suppose one can well pursue this to the Nth degree with say a guitar amplifie
r
but doing this to a reproducer system that will have a variety of signal types, it seems to me they
will
likely also have to develop musical taste which compliments the coloration's they have developed,
keeping only the "sweet sounding stuff" and throwing out the now horrid.
Taking the example of styles of painting and drawing and you have a case where a charcoal caricature
may
well do a better job capturing a persons "essence" than a photo or realistic painting.
Unfortunately once you have stepped away from Photo realism towards the charcoal caricature, you ha
ve
applied that style to every thing you look at and some things will not benefit.
On the other hand, if one wants whatever it is to do all jobs equally well, then the output signal h
as
to be as close as possible to the input signal (except for level) I.E. the same waveshape.
To make exactly the same wave shape is a daunting task but at least it is a non subjective target yo
u
can aim at while designing / building.
By this point, many of the "new age approach" types would have stopped reading if they read it at al
l
after seeing my name, the technical or engineering view is not popular in this crowd, but to those s
till
reading I would say this.
In order to use measurements to guide you, you must learn more about them than the popular magazines
can
tell you.
The publications are largely just vehicles for the advertisers who want you to buy there stuff.
As a result nearly all magazines are "upbeat" and give all products at least a decent review, even w
hen
you don't advertise at all, like our review of the ContraBass in wide screen review for example .
There job is to promote sales for the industry and specifically the advertisers, not to give an accu
rate
assessment of reality.
They are on the whole a bad place to learn the technical side of things as so much is BS mixed with
engineering terms, they (along with a few engineers) have literally given the engineering approach a
black eye..
THD percentage measurements for example don't tell you anything about sound quality, but if you can
look at the spectrum, you can develop a good feel for what kinds of distributions and levels sound l
ike
what.
Frequency response graphs for electronics or speakers don't tell you what something sounds like eith
er
but if you do enough of them, you get a feel for what kinds of sounds are caused by what kinds of cu
rve
shapes.
Measuring the speaker outside or anechoically reveals what the speaker actually does but what it doe
s in
your room is another matter, (often shocking) measure at the listening position and compare to outsi
de
to see how much the room does and why dispersion/ reflections property's are so important in govern
ing
a speakers "in room" sound..
For speakers, if your going to measure them to help the development process, use a system which meas
ures
Time or acoustic phase as well. Odd that since phase governs if two signals add entirely or cancel
entirely or are somewhere in between it is usually ignored in speaker design, simple polarity is no
t
enough.. Speakers are many orders of magnitude less accurate in "Time" than electronics so this dom
ain
should be included.
Measurements are at there strongest when you have your own knowledge base to correlate what your
measuring to what your hearing and are at there weakest when used by marketers to "sell" products
Back to work
Tom
=========================================================================
From: TubeGarden@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Re: Larry Moore's amplifier dreams
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 13:15:55 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n617
In a message dated 8/3/00 9:15:18 AM US Mountain Standard Time, Tom@ppci.com
writes:
> Measuring the speaker outside or anechoically reveals what the speaker
actually does but what it does in
> your room is another matter, (often shocking) measure at the listening
position and compare to outside
> to see how much the room does and why dispersion/ reflections property's
are so important in governing
> a speakers "in room" sound..
Greets Jeets Neets!
Everything I know I like someone thinks is wrong:
I measure stuff. I have SPL meter and spectrum analyzer and distortion
analyzer and a 'scope and maybe
SOMEDAY A SIGNAL GENERATOR AND PINK NOISE GENERATOR????? hint hint -
bill? - hint
to help me grok the talk and walk the wire nuts home.
I am not a SNAG (sensitive new age guy) but, I am happy to be able to build
amps and speakers fer my own damn pleasure and not have to listen to the
endless advice and demands of retail hell.
What a speaker actually does in an anechoic chamber has very little to do
with what it actually does in a listening room. Among other things, it acts
as a microphone and feeds signals back to the amp. OK, not BIG signals.
Richard Vandersteen commented that listening to speakers in an anechoic
chamber sometimes makes him feel sick to his stomach. Now, there is something
I HAVE heard in the listening room.
Some whoop de doo speaker company has a test room where all the speakers
being listened to are moved into the exact same position to make a 'fair'
comparison. All these efforts to provide a 'level' playing field are
ludicrous.
It MAY be worthwhile to develop a test listening room where each listener can
select the best position for each speaker and then compare each speaker in
its best position with the others in their best positions. But, if nobody
buys the winners, no one will care.
It is probably even more direct and useful to lend speakers to people who
listen all the time anyway and get their feedback via conversation.
I think the room and the speaker/listener placement are the most important
thing in system setup. And as the speakers and 'other components' age, this
needs to be kept 'fresh.'
Everything I think I like someone knows is wrong.
Happy Ears!
Al B^}
=========================================================================
From: "peter davidoff" <peterd@hcberger.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Re: Larry Moore's amplifier dreams
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 19:24:27 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n617
"Audiography" recapitulates Photography. Back in the late 80's and early
90's on the
rec.photo news we had similar discussions. Made for lots of good
late-nite-think.
The thesis of the text, "Keeps of Light" is that photography is limited by
the syntax of the equipment. So is language. So is audio.
The dynamics of the scene a photographer wishes to shoot may be vast (sunny
beach) or compressed (foggy day). Ansel's ZoneSystem suggests that we place
the light value of the shadow in a zone that will just show texture (Z-3)
and place the highlight of the scene in the zone that just looses highlight
texture (Z-7), consider the difference, then adjust exposure and development
according to the light, film, and developer. Then all this has to match the
syntax of your paper. The process is first technical – we test our lenses,
film, developers, papers, and style – develop a (personal) system. Then it
becomes art and subjective when we apply it too a scene. And there are those
photographers, many, who are silver printers, who strive only for technical
perfection. It measures well. (We photographers too create graphs and
specs).
Some of us, me for example, are pictoralists. I use an 8x10, an 11x14,
(sometimes that little 4x5), I use 100 year old lenses, coat my own paper
with platinum, and use rough coated water color paper instead of shiny
silver gelatin. My images sink into the paper and have depth, color, I think
a passion. Black and white is a distortion. The paper has its own texture.
That’s a distortion. If I show my brush strokes from coating the paper, that
too is a distortion. But the sum makes it work.
I got the point across, whatever point I wanted to make.
Audio suffers first from the source of music. We start with some
imperfection born by the media type, and certainly the bias of the recording
engineer and studio. Now, bare with me here for a moment… I’ve been out of
diy audio since grad school, and that was some 5 lifetimes ago (before
divorce, before kids, before marriage, before Colorado, before…), but I’m
back having fun learning again. What I see you Joes doing is this, and in
many cases it is like those of us who are pictoralist photographers: One
starts with some basic topology, theory, and set of iron and glass. Then
comes the changing of the syntax -- the objects we use to convey the signal
(we do this too in the darkroom by changing chemistry, changing time,
changing process [say carbon printing vs van dyke vs platinum]) -- the
syntax adds some coloration (not a bad word here). The goal, I suspect, is
that the listening experience should be memorable, bring a smile, get the
point across. Even with some coloration and distortion.
In cookery we do this, no? We might cook with one olive oil, then when we
serve the dish, we accent it with a better olive oil… much like which caps
we use where.
In the end, we measure it all by the viewing/listening experience. It doesn’
t (shouldn’t?) be perfect, just *right*.
- --------------
There are a few pics posted on www.hcberger.com/peter/pictures.htm -- they
were
posted for other reasons, but you can see platinum, carbon, and a 60yr old
8x10 on the great wall of china.
Note to Neil: Great Wall pictures came out great, but I need to go back and
do it again. I was overwhelmed just being there and didn't concentrate on my
pics. Film was ASA 100.
=========================================================================
From: "Sellek, Grant (TSA)" <Grant.Sellek@transport.sa.gov.au>
Subject: [JN] RE: Re: Larry Moore's amplifier dreams
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 11:38:48 +0930
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n618
The closer analogy to hifi in photography would be to demand
that a photo of a painting accurately reproduces the painting.
Such an expectation is not so outrageous, unless you are
doing monochrome photography!!
Grant Sellek, Adelaide, Australia
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdonen@bu.edu [mailto:mdonen@bu.edu]
>
> Speaking to Larry Moore's ideas on engineering and amp
> building: isn't it like this?:
>
> Think of photography ..... a "good" photograph isn't one
> that perfectly "reproduces" reality. Clearly this is a very
> simplistic expectation to have for photography (abandoned it
> seems very soon after photography was invented). You just
> have to laugh at the barbarity of this idea. So why do some
> insist on it (or at least are we unable to give it up) for
> music "reproduction"? ..................
>
> Why can't we grasp that audio techniques, like photography,
> do not aim to reproduce reality? ..... In a basic way, audio
> is not a reproduction, it is an event of its own kind. Not a
> reproduction, but a production. .....Let's abandon the idea
> that our machine must give us "the closest approach to the
> original sound" or the "absolute" sound because this idea
> is a prison in which we enclose the technique using audio.
>
> Mark
=========================================================================
From: Grover Gardner <groverg@postoffice.att.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Re: Larry Moore's amplifier dreams
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 13:25:38 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n618
Peter, those are gorgeous pix!
- -------
Grover Gardner
groverg@postoffice.att.net
=========================================================================
From: "Andy Evans" <arts.psychology@cwcom.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Re: Larry Moore's amplifier dreams
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 19:48:49 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n618
> "Audiography" recapitulates Photography. >
Very nice words about Ansell Adams. He used, of course, to be a concert
pianist (and hung out with a lot of pianists like Ashkenazy later in life)
so the likeness with music is appropriate.
I sense from the way you describe choice of paper, equipment etc. and
Ansell's Zone system, that in a way one is working backwards from the result
one wants to achieve. Probably beyond a certain point in art there is a
growing security of being comfortable in a certain style, and then it is a
question of working backwards to find the means of acheiving it. If Seurat
is comfortable with a vague dotty look, his exploration of the ways of
acheiving it will lead to pointillism. If the sound palette one wants to
achieve is a fluid midrange with detail and soundstage, then the journey
will travel to SETs. If it is a ballsy sound with tight rocking bass,
probably to large SS amps. If it is a smooth natural 'in the room' sound,
then possibly panel speakers. I think that we are all painting the sound
pictures we like - maybe a generation up from air guitars - and the idea of
our personal choice is important. Same idea with DJs and remixes. We want to
chose the sound we like and work backwards to acheive it. This places the
process more in the realm of art than that of 'fidelity'. We may want to use
fidelity, we may not --
Andy Evans, e-mail: andy@artsandmedia.com
Visit our Website: www.artsandmedia.com
=========================================================================
From: David Home <DHome@CREO.BE>
Subject: RE: [JN] Re: Larry Moore's amplifier dreams
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 18:40:47 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n619
Hi Peter. I am also a DIY printer ( Palladium as I like the warmer tone ) and a Zone Zombie since th
e 70's. I like little prints though and sold my 4X5 years ago and use only a Polaroid 195 with P/N f
ilm now. Much easier to carry around and I find that the lack of technical options ( one lens, no ri
sing/falling planes, contact print only, etc) really concentrates the creative energies. I know a gu
y who might be selling his 8X10 Wista/180SuperAngulon, so maybe I'll make big prints again before lo
ng.
I remember that Saint Ansel said that the negative is the score and the print the performance. I thi
nk the analogue can be applied to DIY audio as well. No matter how good the print is ( the home audi
o reproduction chain ), we are still stuck with negatives made by others ( the recordings).
Platinum printers are definitely the Joenet type fringers of the photographic world.
Regards, David
-----Original Message-----
From: peter davidoff [mailto:peterd@hcberger.com]
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2000 3:24 AM
To: sound@lists.io.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Re: Larry Moore's amplifier dreams
"Audiography" recapitulates Photography. Back in the late 80's and early
90's on the
rec.photo news we had similar discussions. Made for lots of good
late-nite-think.
The thesis of the text, "Keeps of Light" is that photography is limited by
the syntax of the equipment. So is language. So is audio.
The dynamics of the scene a photographer wishes to shoot may be vast (sunny
beach) or compressed (foggy day). Ansel's ZoneSystem suggests that we place
the light value of the shadow in a zone that will just show texture (Z-3)
and place the highlight of the scene in the zone that just looses highlight
texture (Z-7), consider the difference, then adjust exposure and development
according to the light, film, and developer. Then all this has to match the
syntax of your paper. The process is first technical - we test our lenses,
film, developers, papers, and style - develop a (personal) system. Then it
becomes art and subjective when we apply it too a scene. And there are those
photographers, many, who are silver printers, who strive only for technical
perfection. It measures well. (We photographers too create graphs and
specs).
Some of us, me for example, are pictoralists. I use an 8x10, an 11x14,
(sometimes that little 4x5), I use 100 year old lenses, coat my own paper
with platinum, and use rough coated water color paper instead of shiny
silver gelatin. My images sink into the paper and have depth, color, I think
a passion. Black and white is a distortion. The paper has its own texture.
That's a distortion. If I show my brush strokes from coating the paper, that
too is a distortion. But the sum makes it work.
I got the point across, whatever point I wanted to make.
Audio suffers first from the source of music. We start with some
imperfection born by the media type, and certainly the bias of the recording
engineer and studio. Now, bare with me here for a moment... I've been out of
diy audio since grad school, and that was some 5 lifetimes ago (before
divorce, before kids, before marriage, before Colorado, before...), but I'm
back having fun learning again. What I see you Joes doing is this, and in
many cases it is like those of us who are pictoralist photographers: One
starts with some basic topology, theory, and set of iron and glass. Then
comes the changing of the syntax -- the objects we use to convey the signal
(we do this too in the darkroom by changing chemistry, changing time,
changing process [say carbon printing vs van dyke vs platinum]) -- the
syntax adds some coloration (not a bad word here). The goal, I suspect, is
that the listening experience should be memorable, bring a smile, get the
point across. Even with some coloration and distortion.
In cookery we do this, no? We might cook with one olive oil, then when we
serve the dish, we accent it with a better olive oil... much like which caps
we use where.
In the end, we measure it all by the viewing/listening experience. It doesn'
t (shouldn't?) be perfect, just *right*.
- --------------
There are a few pics posted on www.hcberger.com/peter/pictures.htm -- they
were
posted for other reasons, but you can see platinum, carbon, and a 60yr old
8x10 on the great wall of china.
Note to Neil: Great Wall pictures came out great, but I need to go back and
do it again. I was overwhelmed just being there and didn't concentrate on my
pics. Film was ASA 100.
=========================================================================
From: "Sikking, Peter" <peter.sikking@nomura.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [JN] Re: Larry Moore's amplifier dreams
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 19:24:27 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n619
David wrote:
- --I remember that Saint Ansel said that the negative is the
score and the print the performance. I think the analogue can
be applied to DIY audio as well. No matter how good the print
is ( the home audio reproduction chain ), we are still stuck
with negatives made by others ( the recordings).
I reached the same conclusion as David today after Peter's thought
provoking post. The audio realisation system (that includes the room)
is a semi-automated print system with one parameter, the actual
enlargement (volume).
This opens so many cans of worms:
*)Is there such a thing as neutral/accurate when flavour choices
(choose your `distortion') have to be made in the printing process?
*)Since we are the printmaker and (one of the) beholders of the print,
are we allowed to maximise the perceived emotional/artistic content of
the negative?
*)I tend to think now that one print system with one parameter (enlargement)
cannot convey the emotional/artistic contents of every negative.
We can swap paper/filters/chemicals/exposure & development time
in the printing process, so is it OK to swap components (room, speaker,
amps etc.) in the system(s) and/or parameterise the system(s) more
(tone controls, dynamics controls).
*)And finally:
If the printing is (more than) 50% of making a photograph,
is audio realisation system (more than) 50% of making a musical
experience?
I'm off to ponder about this now...
--Peter
: music lover : ultra-fi builder : ui designer & developer : on drums...
: from:amsterdam@london.uk : +44 20 7521 1070 : facsimile +44 20 7521 3686
=========================================================================
From: "peter davidoff" <peterd@hcberger.com>
Subject: RE: [JN] Re: Larry Moore's amplifier dreams
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 14:44:18 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n620
Peter, David, et al
> This opens so many cans of worms:
>
> *)Is there such a thing as neutral/accurate when flavour choices
> (choose your `distortion') have to be made in the printing process?
Maybe just appropriate...
> *)Since we are the printmaker and (one of the) beholders of the print,
> are we allowed to maximise the perceived emotional/artistic content of
> the negative?
I think (I'll have to reflect on this some), the answer is yes. Having
a structure of syntax as variable as we have suggests that we should use
it as needed. What is "needed"?
> *)I tend to think now that one print system with one parameter
> (enlargement)
> cannot convey the emotional/artistic contents of every negative.
> We can swap paper/filters/chemicals/exposure & development time
> in the printing process, so is it OK to swap components (room, speaker,
> amps etc.) in the system(s) and/or parameterise the system(s) more
> (tone controls, dynamics controls).
I tweak my system for CPR, and it is good. Then I need to change it
again for Collin James, and again ...
> *)And finally:
>
> If the printing is (more than) 50% of making a photograph,
> is audio realisation system (more than) 50% of making a musical
> experience?
I leave in hours for a 10 day vacation. First since I bought the
brewery 5 years ago. I'll be off-list for 10 days. Don't know if I
can handle a vacation... ;-) But then, its taking the kids to NY to
see the grandfolks, so is this a vacation? Will check in Aug 18.
I too will ponder these thoughts.
Peter
HC Berger Brewery
=========================================================================
From: Thomas Danley <Tom@ppci.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Re: Larry Moore's amplifier dreams
Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 21:49:31 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n620
"Sikking, Peter" wrote:
> David wrote:
>
> --I remember that Saint Ansel said that the negative is the
> score and the print the performance. I think the analogue can
> be applied to DIY audio as well. No matter how good the print
> is ( the home audio reproduction chain ), we are still stuck
> with negatives made by others ( the recordings).
>
> I reached the same conclusion as David today after Peter's thought
> provoking post. The audio realisation system (that includes the room)
> is a semi-automated print system with one parameter, the actual
> enlargement (volume).
>
> This opens so many cans of worms:
>
> *)Is there such a thing as neutral/accurate when flavour choices
> (choose your `distortion') have to be made in the printing process?
> *)Since we are the printmaker and (one of the) beholders of the print,
> are we allowed to maximise the perceived emotional/artistic content of
> the negative?
> *)I tend to think now that one print system with one parameter (enlargement)
> cannot convey the emotional/artistic contents of every negative.
> We can swap paper/filters/chemicals/exposure & development time
> in the printing process, so is it OK to swap components (room, speaker,
> amps etc.) in the system(s) and/or parameterise the system(s) more
> (tone controls, dynamics controls).
>
> *)And finally:
>
> If the printing is (more than) 50% of making a photograph,
> is audio realisation system (more than) 50% of making a musical
> experience?
>
In photography, the image captured by the camera and what the artist does with
it afterwards are two different things.
The camera itself is a precision engineered device, never is the choice made to
use a more distorted approach over a less distorted approach unless dictated by
cost. As in most systems, optical precision is determined by comparing "what
goes in to what comes out" so to speak and like audio, there are many many forms
of distortion.
Capturing the emotion of a landscape or whatever on film the artist is free to
use what ever combination of film, paper developing and so on, they need to
bring out what they wanted.
Maximizing the impact or emotion of a subject is often not done the format which
is technically most accurate however.
On the other hand, if the goal were to take a photo of an existing "something"
and put it side by side with the original and to have it be a close as possible
to identical, this greatly narrows the possible choices and increases the needed
precision..
The photographer is free to alter many parameters of the process according to
the subject, for the audio constructor, modifying things by ear alone, one can
surely get some things to sound great but if in the process you have made the
system more "non-linear" it is likely that other kinds of listening material are
going to sound worse after modification.
Only a less non linear system will sound better with everything where a more
non-linear system may sound good on some stuff but not as good on others.
This is what I found developing acoustic transducers and loudspeaker drivers
over the last 15 years anyway.
Countless times I found "improvements" which made say an acoustic guitar sound
better but also made the sound of steam escaping very colored. Eventually
(thousands of measurements on many of transducers) I found that over all, if I
modified a driver and it measured to be more linear, then it also generally made
everything sound better.
I have never heard a speaker that didn't sound good, at least listening outside,
if it had excellent measurements.
People also laugh about measuring speakers outside and say it has nothing to do
with reality.
Perhaps not to them, but if one is interested in understanding what you have
built and wish to improve on it, it can matter a great deal.
Outdoors free's you of the transmogrifying effect of the room, leaving the
speakers performance "exposed" to your microphone and ears. If your fine
tuning an engine, it is easier to do standing next to the real thing VS doing it
over the phone and depending on what kind of speakers you have and the location
in the room, it is a similar magnitude of disconnect..
For those with a place to listen outside, I strongly urge you to try it. Grab
the stereo and set it up outside, same or larger kind of distances you have in
side. Get the speakers up off the ground so the hf is at ear level or so from
your listening position in the lounge chair.
If you have point source speakers particularly, you will likely be amazed at the
increased stereo imaging as point sources produce the most room interaction and
so have the most obscured recorded information (in a room) .
Your thinking bullsh-t, I say try it and see.
Regardless of speaker, you will probably not be happy with the bass loudness (no
room gain) although it to will sound better, free of room modes.
We have had BBQ's here at my house for the last 20 years or so where we set up a
big stereo outside, it is a great afternoon. At the last one we used 4
ContraBass below 50 Hz but were short on power.
.
Once you have heard what the speakers sound like without the room, you will
likely be inspired to address your close reflections to try and get closer to
that "outside" sound quality.
While similar so far as measurement purposes, this should not be confused with
what it is like being in an Anechoic chamber which is dramatically un-natural
sounding..
I guess for me designing drivers and speaker systems for a living for most of my
life, I have gone towards the "identical replica goal" as generally defined by a
comparison of the input to the output over the artistic approach.
Perhaps as a result of having to do so much by ear alone in the early days, I
embrace measurements when they can increase my understanding of the engineering
of things or illustrate the difference between the input and output.
I am however still moved near to tears looking at my Grampa's b&w photo of my
parents old pond in the winter though, not precise but still powerful.
It is a little sad that so many people misunderstand measurements as result of
marketing departments using them and aren't generally even aware of why you do
them and how they can be powerful development tools in your hands.
If I were staring over, I would look at a "sound card" based system.
Many sound cards are available with specs far better than a "CD" quality, many
are 24 bit/96K, nearly immeasurable distortion etc.
See this site for a review of sound cards, look at the low end pro units.
http://www.bway.net/~rongon/home_rec/soundcard.html#Category_5
http://www.pcavtech.com/soundcards/compare/index.htm
Many of these cards come with breakout boxes, add an input attenuator and
whatever to the in and out, then add measurement software. Here is a sample,
check out spectra lab
http://www.pmgrp.com/prod01.htm
Best Regards,
Tom
=========================================================================
From: Mark Donen <mdonen@bu.edu>
Subject: [JN] Re Larry Moore's therapy
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 08:30:52 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n617
Speaking to Larry Moore's ideas on engineering and amp building: isn't it
like this?:
What the engineer tries for is a "perfect" technical amplified reproduction
of a signal at the outputs. What this apparently "reasonable" idea
overlooks is that it misses what we are trying to do altogether.
Think of photography (Slagle?): a "good" photograph isn't one that
perfectly "reproduces" reality. Clearly this is a very simplistic
expectation to have for photography (abandoned it seems very soon after
photography was invented). You just have to laugh at the barbarity of this
idea. So why do some insist on it (or at least are we unable to give it up)
for music "reproduction"?
If your standard for a photograph is repoduction, you just don't get what
photography is. Even medical photography (clearly here we are not talking
art here) what we are doing is using a techinque to let us see what we
cannot see with the eye by itself. What we see is a perspective. It shows
us somethig there that isn't there of us. This isn't reproduction.
Obviously there are ways that photography may be improved technically. We
can have improved articulation in various parts of the spectrum, detail in
shadow and in highlights, higher resolution of detail etc. But none of
these in any way is going to be able to convince us that the photograph
reproduces reality. All of these are tools one can draw on to produce
photographs, not to reproduce reality. Photographs may appear to have a
truth but this is disclosed only in the photograph itself. This is the case
for art as well as scientific photographs.
Why can't we grasp that audio techniques, like photography, do not aim to
reproduce reality? Music from machines is a different medium. If you want
real live music, play it. But isn't audio really "audiography"? If not
applying the standard of one to one correspondence to photography has
allowed photography to develop as an medium in which there are many
orientations of taste and different kinds of techniques (not to mention
good and bad taste all over the place), let us try to free ourselves from
restrictive view of what is going on and to allow audio similar freedom to
develop. In a basic way, audio is not a reproduction, it is an event of its
own kind. Not a reproduction, but a production. This is what the word
technology means. It is a technique or a skill that produces. Even playing
the violin is a techinque, but what is produced by the violin is not
soemthing that you can have by itself without the violin. Same with the
machines we like. Let's abandon the idea that our machine must give us "the
closest approach to the original sound" or the "absolute" sound because
this idea is a prison in which we enclose the technique using audio.
Mark
begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT
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M'+$X045C2]#_"U%8(FST&\N%1#2")Q$@2?^%0RX41SM(T19!44(612(`_R:1
M)Q 7DV?R268D,3*#%^#_=0,%L&MQ2T :L GP<+%V`O\MV1%@( %D,!6@(S$M
MRBM2_F4H< D`&P"8$DZD:(!FDO\J( W@5W-@Y0.!/\$(@0(P?S>39Y1#$2J!
M&K&+*!>!9/]GE(6W+G!WA0> @6$9L3 "_QJ3.9!CD9V4<Z(H<7%4"V#]-# I
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end
=========================================================================
From: "Andy Evans" <arts.psychology@cwcom.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Re Larry Moore's therapy
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 16:58:55 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n617
Thanks for a really excellent bit of writing - the analogy with photography
is very useful. As you say, even a violin does not 'reproduce' by itself.
There are stormy threads on the music newsgroups on the subject of LTMSFI
(let the music speak for itself, a much pilloried Grammophone-ism),
basically saying it can't and that the character of the interpreter is
unavoidable and, additionally, potentially positive. The 'character' of
reproduced sound is just the same - human decisions have to be made
concerning its quality from the recording desk to the style of audio
equipment used to play it back. --
Andy Evans, e-mail: andy@artsandmedia.com
Visit our Website: www.artsandmedia.com
=========================================================================
From: "Dave Aukerman" <aukdav@wcoil.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Re Larry Moore's therapy(we're all nuts)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 12:36:54 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n617
Uhmmmm, not exactly.
The purpose of designing a system (and it is a system, not a collection of
parts) is to accurately reproduce (as closely as possible) the sound that
was first -produced-. Otherwise you are just manipulating the original
concept.
Not a photo snapper by trade, but a camera as it stands cannot reproduce a
3D object accurately w/o some type of manipulation on the part of the
snapper or the developer. That's why the good lens jockies as on the same
level as the artist holding a brush.
Ever sit in a studio and listen to the music being put to tape? Usually its
not even close to the finished product. Levels are all over the place,
weird resonances, funky noises from the players, all the stuff that makes a
live performance so priceless. The stuff that makes you suddenly and
uncontrollably grin for no apparent reason. I remember sitting in a club
watching\listening to Steve Vai manipulate notes in a way that the record
just couldn't attempt to reproduce. Why? Because the tape is a filthy
liar. About as sexy as a feather pillow with a face drawn on the front
side. (Uhhh, hey baby) Buuuuuttttt, it's all we got, so we attempt to give
that bastard the tape the best presentation possible. How? Through
accuracy. Otherwise we're all just cruising through life in our ratted out
car with two 12's and a tweet. Great if your the chick from the Howard
Stern movie, but is it accurate? Fullfilling? You decide.
Let's face it. There are good recordings and bad one's, the great one's all
go down in our minds as being forever. Should we manipulate the "system" so
that the bad one's are somewhat better/good? Depends on your respect for
the player. Pick out your favorite recordings. Stuff like Stevie Ray
Vaughn's "Little Wing" a track that if not accurately reproduced on your
system will not give you the ear candy of SRV's Twin's and Bassman's humming
like a hive of pissed off bees between notes.
Now back to life.
Dave
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Donen" <mdonen@bu.edu>
To: "'JoeNet'" <sound@deliverator.io.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 7:30 AM
Subject: [JN] Re Larry Moore's therapy
> Speaking to Larry Moore's ideas on engineering and amp building: isn't it
> like this?:
>
> What the engineer tries for is a "perfect" technical amplified
reproduction
> of a signal at the outputs. What this apparently "reasonable" idea
> overlooks is that it misses what we are trying to do altogether.
>
> Think of photography (Slagle?): a "good" photograph isn't one that
> perfectly "reproduces" reality. Clearly this is a very simplistic
> expectation to have for photography (abandoned it seems very soon after
> photography was invented). You just have to laugh at the barbarity of this
> idea. So why do some insist on it (or at least are we unable to give it
up)
> for music "reproduction"?
>
> If your standard for a photograph is repoduction, you just don't get what
> photography is. Even medical photography (clearly here we are not talking
> art here) what we are doing is using a techinque to let us see what we
> cannot see with the eye by itself. What we see is a perspective. It shows
> us somethig there that isn't there of us. This isn't reproduction.
>
> Obviously there are ways that photography may be improved technically. We
> can have improved articulation in various parts of the spectrum, detail in
> shadow and in highlights, higher resolution of detail etc. But none of
> these in any way is going to be able to convince us that the photograph
> reproduces reality. All of these are tools one can draw on to produce
> photographs, not to reproduce reality. Photographs may appear to have a
> truth but this is disclosed only in the photograph itself. This is the
case
> for art as well as scientific photographs.
>
> Why can't we grasp that audio techniques, like photography, do not aim to
> reproduce reality? Music from machines is a different medium. If you want
> real live music, play it. But isn't audio really "audiography"? If not
> applying the standard of one to one correspondence to photography has
> allowed photography to develop as an medium in which there are many
> orientations of taste and different kinds of techniques (not to mention
> good and bad taste all over the place), let us try to free ourselves from
> restrictive view of what is going on and to allow audio similar freedom to
> develop. In a basic way, audio is not a reproduction, it is an event of
its
> own kind. Not a reproduction, but a production. This is what the word
> technology means. It is a technique or a skill that produces. Even playing
> the violin is a techinque, but what is produced by the violin is not
> soemthing that you can have by itself without the violin. Same with the
> machines we like. Let's abandon the idea that our machine must give us
"the
> closest approach to the original sound" or the "absolute" sound because
> this idea is a prison in which we enclose the technique using audio.
>
> Mark
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Hiroshi Ito <hiroshi@aloha.net>
Subject: [JN] La Scala Plans
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 09:24:58 -1000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n137
Howzit,
I've been working a horn system and need to build a bass horn. Wanted
know if any Joes out there got plans for a Klipsch La Scala. I totally
agree with Mikey's and Peter's observations in SP vol.2 #1 and just use
it for the bottom. Finding a used one here has been impossible as that
model was never available thru normal channels. Plenty of k-horns here
but that 250hz suck out just doesn't cut it for my system.
Mahalo, Hiroshi
=========================================================================
From: Hiroshi Ito <hiroshi@aloha.net>
Subject: [JN] Re: La Scala Plans
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 10:12:17 -1000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n137
Howzit,
I've been working on a horn system, got the mids worked out, but need to
build a bass horn. Wanted know if any Joes out there got plans for a
Klipsch La Scala. I totally agree with Mikey's and Peter's observations
in SP vol.2 #1 and plan to use just the bottom. Finding a used one here
has been impossible as that model was never available thru normal
channels. There's plenty of k-horns around here but that 250hz suck out
just doesn't cut it for my system.
Mahalo, Hiroshi
=========================================================================
From: cgooch@jarl.cs.uop.edu
Subject: Re: [JN] La Scala Plans
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 21:23:04 -0700 (PDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n137
I have some at www.electric.org/audio.html
On Thu, 6 May 1999, Hiroshi Ito wrote:
> Howzit,
>
> I've been working a horn system and need to build a bass horn. Wanted
> know if any Joes out there got plans for a Klipsch La Scala. I totally
> agree with Mikey's and Peter's observations in SP vol.2 #1 and just use
> it for the bottom. Finding a used one here has been impossible as that
> model was never available thru normal channels. Plenty of k-horns here
> but that 250hz suck out just doesn't cut it for my system.
>
> Mahalo, Hiroshi
>
=========================================================================
From: Phil <tube@jump.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Laser LP Player
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 12:00:37 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n850
Cameron Brook wrote:
> Is this the ultimate vinyl reproduction system??
>
> http://www.elpj.com/frameset.html
>
> And the ultimate price to match!
It may be, if they have solved certain problems.
At work I was recently transferred to another building, where I wound
up next to a guy named Randy Martin. He is sort of the "sargeant"
between me and my boss, answering questions and giving directions on
what to do. One day when the subject of vinyl came up, it turned out
that he is not just any Randy Martin, but THE Randy Martin, as in one
of the original "gang of five" who worked on the original Finial Laser
turntable for 5 years (he was the mechanical engineer). Obviously this
led to some interesting conversations.
For records which it could play (more on that later), the Finial
turntable was potentially perfect. It was completely analog, the
quality of the signal being limited only by the electronics, which
were almost certainly op-amps and the usual SS trash. It had two IR
lasers, one aimed at the left groove wall, the other at the right
groove wall. I think that the angle of the beam was a little less than
45 degrees down, so that during "silent grooves", the beam simply
returned to a point just above the laser. For the modulated portions
of the groove, the portions "with sound", the angle of the groove wall
would change, sending the beam to the right or left of the laser. A
long detector (probably a PIN diode) with outputs at the left and
right ends would pick up the beam. During silent sections the beam was
in the middle of the detector, giving equal output at both ends.
During modulated sections, however, the beam would swing left and
right, producing more output at one end or the other, giving a push-
pull, or balanced, output. Completely analog, with the theoretically
infinite resolution that analog provides (down to the point where the
noise completely swamps the signal).
The problem they ran into, and which was never fully solved at Finial,
despite the best efforts of some VERY creative minds, had to do with
the maximum size of the groove modulation. For records which conform
to the maximum angle specified by the RIAA standard, the turntable
worked perfectly, being limited only by the electronics used to
amplify the output from the detector (which we no doubt could easily
fix!). Unfortunately, only about 50% of records actually conform to
this spec. Because of the way the Finial worked, the beam, in addition
to moving left and right, would arc down at each end. For extreme
angles, corresponding to a very large high frequency note, the beam
would actually go so low that it hit the other groove wall! No signal
return then. Also, for many records the cutter head was moved so fast
(sharp angle again), that the back of the head would run into the
groove it had just cut, with the result that that section of groove
would be very rough, very torn up by the back of the cutter head. A
diamond needle can simply follow an "average path" through these
sections, giving a pretty good signal, but for the laser, reflection
from the groove dropped to almost zero during these sections. Finally,
a bit of dust would reflect far more light than the groove wall,
giving a loud pop as the laser passed over it, although this last
problem could be largely overcome by good cleaning.
So, for at least 50% of your record collection, the ELF would
potentially be the best thing possible -- at least, after you ripped
out the electronics and replaced it with some good stuff! As for the
other 50%, it depends on how well ELF has managed to solve the
problems that Finial never was able to completely overcome. It
remains a fascinating idea, in any case.
Phil
As the beam
mounted perepndicular to the
groovesat the groove wall, which was
reflected back
=========================================================================
From: "Bernhard Kistner" <kistneraudio@compuserve.de>
Subject: Re: [JN] Laser LP Player
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 22:29:02 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n850
Hello Cameron, hello all,
> Is this the ultimate vinyl reproduction system??
>
> http://www.elpj.com/frameset.html
>
> And the ultimate price to match!
about 10 years ago, this TT was announced and presented. I do not know how
it has evolved today but back then the unit was reputed to have enormous
problems with scratches, particularly scratches nearly tangential to the
groove. Moreover it was reputed to crack and pop louder than a conventional
TT when the record had scratches (sounds logical to me as an optical reader
system will outperform any mechanical reader AFA risetime and bandwidth is
concerned -- the audio signal on a record is not amplitude-coded, it is
velocity-coded and the cartridge is a velocity detector)
An acquaintant of mine back then experienced the first USA presentation and
reported this reputation to be true. I have no first-hand experience about
it.
Maybe they have these problems solved meanwhile but their website was not a
positive impression to me: I felt like someone was going to talk me into
buying a vacuum cleaner <g>
Greets,
Bernhard
phone (home) +49 (0)89 3000 22 75
eMail_home1 kistneraudio@compuserve.de
eMail_home2 b.kistner@worldonline.de
eMail_home3 bernhard.kistner@gmx.net
=========================================================================
From: "Cameron Brook" <cambrook@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: [JN] Laser LP Player
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 23:50:18 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n850
Is this the ultimate vinyl reproduction system??
http://www.elpj.com/frameset.html
And the ultimate price to match!
=========================================================================
From: AnnaLogg@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Laser LP Player
Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 00:21:55 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n850
In a message dated 03/31/2001 10:54:32 AM Eastern Standard Time,
cambrook@cyllene.uwa.edu.au writes:
> Is this the ultimate vinyl reproduction system??
>
> http://www.elpj.com/frameset.html
>
> And the ultimate price to match!
>
I've heard it. I was not impressed. It's persnickety and it doesn't sound
$14K worth of great. Too bad -- good idea.
Anna
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: [JN] Laser LP Player
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 14:48:04 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n850
Hi
The S/N ratio might be bad, as photodiodes yield very little current, their
sources are high impedant and as such very vulnerable.......
This is a problem since CD, and there they have an easy job compared to
analogue playback.....
Guido
At 22:29 31-3-01 +0200, Bernhard Kistner wrote:
>Hello Cameron, hello all,
>
>
>
>> Is this the ultimate vinyl reproduction system??
>>
>> http://www.elpj.com/frameset.html
>>
>> And the ultimate price to match!
>
>about 10 years ago, this TT was announced and presented. I do not know how
>it has evolved today but back then the unit was reputed to have enormous
>problems with scratches, particularly scratches nearly tangential to the
>groove. Moreover it was reputed to crack and pop louder than a conventional
>TT when the record had scratches (sounds logical to me as an optical reader
>system will outperform any mechanical reader AFA risetime and bandwidth is
>concerned -- the audio signal on a record is not amplitude-coded, it is
>velocity-coded and the cartridge is a velocity detector)
>
>An acquaintant of mine back then experienced the first USA presentation and
>reported this reputation to be true. I have no first-hand experience about
>it.
>
>Maybe they have these problems solved meanwhile but their website was not a
>positive impression to me: I felt like someone was going to talk me into
>buying a vacuum cleaner <g>
>
>Greets,
>Bernhard
>
>phone (home) +49 (0)89 3000 22 75
>eMail_home1 kistneraudio@compuserve.de
>eMail_home2 b.kistner@worldonline.de
>eMail_home3 bernhard.kistner@gmx.net
>
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Douglas Purl <dcp@selway.umt.edu>
Subject: [JN] Laser Turntable
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 15:31:18 -0700 (MST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n447
[For those who like scientific presentations of engineering
problems. Bring your magnifier. -- dp]
http://www.elpj.com/
Laser Turntable & ELP
Reproducing phonograph records without physical contact has been a dream in
the music and audio world for more than 70 years, as soon as it was realized
that a stylus touching a moving disc caused substantial immediate and
permanent damage to the musical information stored on that disc.
An American graduate student, Robert E. Stoddard, made a theoretical
analysis of the feasibility and concluded that the dream could, in fact, be
realized. While in graduate school at Stanford University, he proved that
the musical information on analog records could be retrieved optically. None
of his colleagues, nor his professor, believed that this theoretical
analysis could be converted into a practical machine.
Upon graduation in 1983, Stoddard established Finial Technology Inc., in
California and started developping an optical turntable to prove the theory,
because it is his belief "Nothing Impossible for Technology". Several very
able engineers with skills in laser optics, high servo systems, analog
signal processing and high precision mechanical systems joined Stoddard in
his quest to fulfill the audio lovers' dream. It did in fact prove more
difficult to build a machine than the graduate student's theory, but after 7
years of effort and almost 20 million dollars of investment, he succeeded in
the basic development. There is little doubt that this remarkable
achievement was only possible in the United States of America where such
application of cutting edge technologies are respected and supported by many
private investors.
One example of the devotion shown to the project is the development of
critical components for the Laser Turntable. Of course, no critical
components were available "off the shelf". The optical scanner required was
of such a high performance level that the only ones available were military
class devices. His team worked for 18 months to develop a custom high
performance scanner for the optical turntable.
Although the Finial team successfully completed the development of the Laser
Turntable, the team lacked the experience and the financial resources to go
into production. To move into production the Finial team contacted major
Japanese audio product manufacturers to form a joint venture, but these
companies had a much greater interest in promoting Compact Disc Technology
and showed no real interest in the preservation of our heritage of music
stored on vinyl discs.
It is our belief at ELP Corporation that phonographic recording is a culture
in and of itself which should not be allowed to become extinct. We believe
that the new technologies should be utilized, not only to scrap conventional
products (Scrap and Rebuild), but also to preserve that which is worth
preserving,and in this case, the vast heritage of music (and also other
historically important recordings)) on vinyl discs are definitely worth
preservation for future generations. In addition, my personality is to
challenge the business which nobody shows interest in. With this firm
conviction in mind, we decided to challenge the Laser Turntable so we
invited Stoddard and his engineers to join our team and together
investigated ways to put the Laser Turntable on the market.
One of the first subjects was to see if the turntable could be drastically
lowered in cost by means of automated production technology. After serious
research for almost one year, we came to the conclusion that it would be
very difficult to achieve this, like as reproduction Compact Disc by Needle,
because of the wide variety of forms of records were only meant to be played
by a mechanical stylus, therefore, variations in quality of records that
were within the tolerance of stylus technology were disregarded during the
manufacturing of records. So we understood that the automated production
system shall require the huge amount of new investment, particularly for
Optical System which consists of 5 laser beams, and also to redesign all
critical components and develop special equipments/machinaries for automated
production. By return we found that the handmade production is the cheaper
way, rather than automated production, same theory as space rockets
(handmade). That's why we ultimately decided that the target of the Laser
Turntable is not to replace Stylus Record Player at cheap price, but to
support requirements and technologies to utilize valuable vinyl records
permanently without any change.
Based on this decision we simply reviewed and improved the basic design of
the original Finial Turntable with an emphasis on three points: (a)
improvement of quality and reliability: (b)development of new functionality
to extend the range of types of records the turntable would play:
(c)establishment of facilities and processes to build very high quality
turntables by hand.
Since we completed all of those three points, we have been marketing and
promoting Laser Turntable mainly in domestic market of Japan, except few
customers out of Japan, and already supplied over 200 units, such as
Universities, Libraries, Museums, Theaters and many individual music lovers.
Now we are in the new phase to start the marketing for Internet age over the
World.
Sanju Chiba
President, ELP Corporation
Products
View our products' features and their specifications
Purchase Info
Find out how to purchase one of ELP's world class products
Press & Customers
Read what the media and our customers are saying
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----
[ Phone: +81-48-883-8502 Fax: +81-48-883-8503 Email:
elpchiba@interlink.or.jp ]
[ Website produced and designed by HydraMedia Corporation | © 1997 All
Rights Reserved ]
=========================================================================
From: AnnaLogg@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Laser Turntable
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 21:37:29 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n447
In a message dated 00-02-12 17:34:01 EST, dcp@selway.umt.edu writes:
> http://www.elpj.com/
>
> Laser Turntable & ELP
> Reproducing phonograph records without physical contact has been a dream in
> the music and audio world for more than 70 years, as soon as it was
realized
> that a stylus touching a moving disc caused substantial immediate and
>
(and etc.)
I have heard it in what is probably one of the most incredible systems on the
planet (Ralph Glasgal's Ambiophonics system, www.ambiophonics.org) If you
think the "ticks and pops" of a stylus tracing the groove is distracting,
this thing makes noises you've never heard before. (And some records, Ralph
told me, it simply refuses to play at all, and for reasons he has been unable
to figure out.) Oddly, it did far better on some OLDER (and, one would think,
more worn) LP's than newly-minted high quality stuff from Classic Records.
But overall, it struck me as far twitchier than the jumpiest cartridge/arm
combo you can name.
And as far as sound is concerned, I was hugely underwhelmed. I guess there's
just something about a diamond tracing a groove . . . But I had the
impression that it made everything sound sort of the same, as if it wasn't
really making contact, and what it *was* picking up it was homogenizing
somehow.
The idea of a non-wearing pickup certainly has unarguable benefit -- in
theory. But when I put a 25+ year old stereo record (that has been played on
everything I've ever owned since my RCA console in the early 60's) on my
system today and hear it sound ever better and better, I just can't work up
any anxiety over record wear or groove damage. I am convinced that I will
expire long before my records do.
Love,
Anna
=========================================================================
From: Daniel Normolle <monk@umich.edu>
Subject: [JN] Last Ellington Post, I Promise
Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 16:26:30 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n135
All Duke Ellington CDs are on sale at Tower Records until 5/10.
Including, I assume the 24-CD RCA Centenary Edition.
dpn
=========================================================================
From: Kurt Steffensen <kurt-steffensen@teliamail.dk>
Subject: [JN] LAST FESTIVAL BULLETIN BEFORE IMPACT
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 09:59:45 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n616
This is the last and edited news bulletin regarding the TRIODE FESTIVAL
2000.
Here is an almost complete list of the Joes , and other people that show
up with gear, and a time schedule:
Allen Wright , Tube amp. designer and author of the Cable cook books , a
Joe Kiwi living in Germany ,
will hold a cable workshop. ( That is just a SMASHING idea :-)
He also brings a pre amp and a differential 572 power amp. ( Says it is
NOT Push Pull ;-)
Guido Tent , EMC engineer and Joelister from Holland will hold a lecture
about EMC noise. ( And that is a highly needed
course ) He will also bring some of his own designs in DAC's. :-)
Jeremy Epstein an indispensable Joelister , from the states , will
perform a few lectures in the high gastronomy. ( He doesn´t
differ much between hot tubes and hot pot's ) He will also bring a
little wellcooked amp :-)
Christian Rintelen , a Harley Davidson Joe , will bring genuine Swiss
Chocolate to yours truly :-) ( I won't share that with anyone )
Ortofons Pick Up expert chief engineer and developer Per Windfeld ,
will perform a lesson about PU's and Ortofons in particual.
( Be sure to be there Saturday , when this happens. That is most likely
a once in a life chance )
Timo Crist , a young Joe from Germany , will bring a big class A amp , a
gaincard and maybe some
more.
Bert Doppenberg , Joe and horn expert from Holland , will drag his
exciting big horns. Boy , I look forward to that :-)
Thomas Mayer , a well known Joelister and audio designer from Germany ,
will bring his "Vinyl Savor" :-)
Mandred Huber , another good Joe and designer from Germany , will
perform a PSU workshop. -
Jan Nielsen , Joe and oldtime reporter from the Danish High Fidelity ,
will bring a turntable and maybe other exciting stuff.
These two wellknown speaker experts Joes :Thomas Dunker , Thorbjørn Lien
and their friend Anders will come from Norway.
Jim De Kort and Bjørn Aaholm will bring a DHT pre amps and some VV
tubes. Jim Joe, we all know from Holland , and his paw Bjørn is Danish.
Simon Busbridge , also a well known Joe from UK , will bring his mother.
( He will take the price for
the most original contribution ;-)
Bill Perkins , known by all, the Canadian Joe Pearl blessed with the six
sense , will bring extra
avagant tube sockets , coolers and probably something yet unknown.
Peter Bahsen , a speaker designer from Denmark , will bring Claus
Mølgaard ex-Audio Note , big horns , a pre
amp , and Cary from Border Patrol , I am told..
Joelister Robert Jørgensen will be with us , straight from Brussels (
Though
he is a genuine and handsome Dane )
Jan Hass from Denmark , will bring AtmaSphere amps and speakers.
Michael Waaben from Brüel & Kjæer , says he will drop by. I guess some
of you will like to
talk a little with him. ( At least I know two persons , that are bound
to ;-)
David Tan a good Joe from Singapore and his wife , travels all this
way. We all look forward to meet you two. :-)
Rick Francis , a genuine Joe from USA , will bring wife , kid and the
now famous rented car and probably a little amp.
James Whitehouse ( A Englishman , living in Denmark ) will join us and
lend us a hard driven pair of Dynaudio Speakers.
Matjiis De Vries , a Dutch Joe , will come with his exciting tube
regulated sub
miniature RIAA , and he might even drag some Altec Speakers up here.
Yummie....
Jens Posselt a speaker designer from Denmark , will come with his new
easy driven speakers.
Michael Ulbrich from Berlin , will bring his well known OPT's.
Gerhard Dierkes from Berlin as well , will sing his version of the high
praised Siren Song.
Hartmut Quaschik , also a Joe from Germany , will bring some Kaneda's ,
and offers a workshop on
this issue. Real cool :-)
Morten , frequently and very nice Joe from Denmark , will bring some
amplifiers and tubes from JJ Electronics.
These amps looks gourgeus..
And I , Joe Kurt Steffensen , the CRAZY Danish babble and tube amp.
designer ,
will make an introduction for a discussion about my Power Distortion
theory.
And I will bring one or more of the following:
wife , grand child , sunshine hour , amp , speaker , tube ,
capacitor , record , resistor , solder station , oscilloscope ,
generator , beer , main filter , Danish , CX and more.
This is most of the attendees and activities.
Far distant contributors:
LAMBDA and SERVODRIVE.
Nick Mckinney and Thomas Danley.
Please , NOTE , that unfortuneately it does seems very much like they
wont make it in time :-(
This is VERY , VERY sad indeed , but these two good Gentlemen have done
their best , and I am sure they will make it next year..
Steve Bench , a wellknown tube magician from USA , has sendt his funny
little battery pre amp , with choke
filters :-)
Hugh Dean a good man Joe , and audio designer , from down under , has
sendt his interesting little solid state Amp.
Hiroshi Ito , from Hawaii and editor Lynn Olson , North America , have
offered one of the famous DAC
attenuators , as a prize or something , at the festival :-)
Bless these two Gentlemen.
David Crittle , that good and nice Aussie Joe and tube dealer , has made
a box of stuff for us other Joes - Thanx a lot :-).
Miroslav Kubala , the good medicineman and Joe from Sweiss , are very
sorry that he can't attend. As an excuse to all us Joes , he will send a
bottle of beer ,
to each of us.. ( That is rather good medicine , Miroslav , thanks a
lot.. Maybe next year )
These are all good Joes , as well :-)
The scedule for lectures and work shops will look more or less like
this:
Thursday , most people comes this day , evening and even night.
Friday:
09,00-10,00 Breakfeast.
11,00 Amplifier routing and layout. 30 minutes. By Guido Tent
12,00 Dinner.
13,30 PSU workshop. By Manfred Huber
? Cableworkshop by Allen Wright
18,00 Supper
Saturday:
9,00-10,00 Breakfeast
12,00 Dinner
13,30 Power Distortion discussion by Kurt Steffensen
15,00 Pick Up lecture and demo by Per Windfeld , Ortofon.
? Cableworkshop by Allen Wright
Approx 19,30 , supper , fire and party.
Sunday.
10,00-11,00 Breakfeast. ( Hangovers , guys ? ;-)
12,30 Dinner.
14,00 Kaneda workshop
15,00 Digital IC decoupling and layout. Guido Tent
? Cableworkshop by Allen Wright.
17,00 Supper.
- - And many of us say goodbye this evening.
Monday:
We all say goodbye , and the festival is over...
That's how it looks right , now. Espect a few changes in the time
schedule.
- -----------------------------
Ladies and Gentlemen, I am happy to announce the TRIODE AUDITION
FESTIVAL 2000.
Where : Odder, Denmark (near ARHUS) at the "Eriksminde Efterskole"
When : Friday August 4th, to Sunday August 6th, 2000.
Friday August 4th : 2PM to 8 PM
Saturday August 5th : 10 AM to 6 PM
Sunday August 6th : 11 AM to 3 PM
One day visitor tickets is Dkr.50,--, ( US$ 6,- )
Who : professional and amateur audio enthusiasts, audiophiles,
do-it-yourself constructors and their families and friends.
What : A 3-day festival celebrating cutting-edge experimental audio
gear,
with lectures, demonstrations, and plenty of opportunities for
socializing.
On-site lodgings including room and board.
Cost : For amateur participants, Danish Krones 1200 (approximately US$
150)
for the full weekend, including lodging and meals.
Two days , including six meals, and one overnight D.Kr. 850,-
One day , including meals , but no over sleep D.Kr. 450,-
These tickets , allows you to exhibit your equipment and/or have a place
to sell your stuff.
For "pro" exhibitors
please contact Kurt Steffensen for more info.
A partial list of events, goals, and ideas :
1) We will listen to unusual (mostly vacuum-tube-powered) audio
amplifiers,
including single-ended and push-pull power amplifiers, line stages,
phono
(RIAA) preamps, etc.
2) We will listen to some exciting speakers, including high-efficiency
triode-friendly designs.
3) We will admire the workmanship of some exotic audio gear - both
commercial and DIY products will be represented at the audition.
4) We will discuss circuits, design theory, and details.
5) We will compare some different power supplies, including regulated
and
passive designs, and hear how these power supplies affect the sound of a
single-ended triode amplifier specially designed for this experiment.
Manfred Huber will lead this demonstration.
Please , see: http://home.t-online.de/home/mhuber/apsuws.htm
6) We will compare conventional and parafeed topologies in a Single
Ended
triode amplifier using Svetlana SV-572 power triodes.
7) We will trade , sell and buy our old junk parts. (Tubes , caps ,
transformers , vintage equipment , vinyl LP's & 78's etc.)
8) We will host lectures about design topics. Further details to be
announced, but so far we have Guido Tent offering a seminar on EMI - how
it
affects audio circuits, and how audio gear can be protected from it.
9) We will listen to some digital equipment. (DACs , CDs , DVDs etc. )
10) We will enjoy the Danish sunshine ;-)
11) Family activities will be arranged - Arhus has beaches and other
attractions which make it an enjoyable place to visit. The Eriksminde
Efterskole is a boarding school with plenty of play space for kids.
12) We will enjoy the company of other tube/hifi maniacs like ourselves!
13) We will enjoy meals and other evening activities, such as bonfires,
dancing, and Viking revelry.
14) We will occasionally gather in small groups, in order to evaluate
some
improvised performances. The school setting offers plenty of different
discussion and listening areas - no one will have to choose between
listening and conversation, there will be plenty of time and space for
both!
15 ) Allen Wright will offer a cable workshop , in which you are able to
produce your own high end cables ,under his careful instructions and
help.
16) Kurt Steffensen will introduce a discussion about the Power
Distortion theory.
17) We will just enjoy the music , the people , the summer and all the
unusual equipment.
18) We will experience things none of us know of yet. And a surprise is
certain to take place.........
This is the overall plan, without all details yet.
Please, expect the event to be a little chaotic and improvised : This
event
is intended to be fun.
The idea for this festival originates from the members of the famous
"Joelist", an internet discussion forum founded by Joe Roberts, the
editor
of Sound Practices magazine. Attendees are expected from all over the
world,
drawing from the membership of this forum as well as other interested
audiophiles and experimenters.
The Triode Audition Festival is hosted by Kurt Steffensen.
He is a madman audio tube designer situated in Århus , Denmark.
So far he has spent the major part of his life , with music , audio and
electronics.
On the basis of listening tests , measurements and other observations
he has developed a theory about a phenomenon he calls "Power
Distortion".
This theory deals with the problems of the matching between speakers and
power amplifiers.
The common theories and data regarding this , is developed entirely upon
the basis of Voltage analyses.
According to the Power Distortion Analyse , this is a major error in
modern audio equipment.
Niche companies, semi pro's and privates are welcome to exhibit their
equipment. Contact Kurt Steffensen directly for the exhibitors' price
schedule.
This event is not envisioned as a showcase for the major commercial
"hi-fi"
interests - the focus is on the cutting edge audio experimenter,
small-scale
manufacturers, and do-it-yourself community. The main purpose of this
festival is for people to meet, celebrate and enjoy our common
interest,
and to share our work and ideas with each other.
This is NOT a contest or "shoot-out." To set up such a demonstration
depends
on too many variables and runs counter to the spirit of informed
experimentation the Audition is trying to foster. However, expect to
learn
from the comparison demonstrations, in the spirit of advancing the state
of
the art.
Another goal : to spread the word about the wonders of good HiFi,
especially
using tubes, but anyone who wishes to demonstrate solid state devices is
very welcome. After all, these are also triodes!
If you wish to participate in this festival with some gear, or would
like to
reserve lodgings, please contact me via the email address given.
Semi- and Pro's will be asked a larger fee for the exhibition - contact
Kurt
directly for more information.
Accommodations are available starting Thursday the 3rd and and ending
Monday
the 7th.
More than 43 double rooms are available. (A few of these are
larger than the others, and will be reserved for families.)
Please , remember to bring your junk box for the big swap meet.
The festival will to take place at a school called "Eriksminde
Efterskole,"
just outside Odder.
Odder is a small town close to Arhus (about 30
km/15 miles away.)
When you arrive to Odder , find the only roundabout in town and drive
against Hou.
A few kilometers out of this road a sign will guide you to the left ,
and voila... You are there :-)
It is actually VERY easy to find. And a standard carmap , will do. ( Can
be purchased at any gasstation )
If you arrive to Århus by train , please locate the train to Odder from
this very station.
The train to Odder is a small train that does not go any further than
Odder.
So actually there is nothing to be worried about.
( Othervice , please ask the conductors. They are happy to help you in
any way they can )
>From Odder , I recommend you hire one of the taxi's , just outside the
station , and ask the driver to take you to "Eriksminde Efterskole"
He will understand English , and he is familiar with the school.
Arhus is the second biggest city in Denmark.
Arhus is about 25 minutes by train , bus or car from Odder.
The school is about 4 km/2 miles from the town of Odder, and is also
close
to a beach. Bus transportation is available to town or it is also a
pleasant walk.
Some general information for visitors to Denmark :
There are 4 main airports in Denmark.
These are Arhus ( Tirstrup ), Billund, Alborg and Copenhagen.
Copenhagen is some 3-4 hours away from Arhus by train , and 3 hours by
car.
Copenhagen is a wonderful, historic old town. It is most certainly worth
a
few days' visit.
Alborg is 2-3 hours from Arhus by car or train.
Alborg is well worth a day trip. There is a really nice ZOO in this
town.
Billund is also 2-3 hours from Arhus.
Billund does not offer much of interest, to tourists, except the
famous LEGOLAND. (This is a strongly recommended visit if you have kids
with
you.)
The German/Danish border is also about two-three hours from Arhus by
car.
Sweden is 4-5 hours from Arhus by car via Copenhagen. (You have to cross
two
big bridges, though, and these will charge you with no mercy ;-)
Car rental is expensive in Denmark, it may be better to arrive in
Germany or
Sweden and arrange rentals there.
Long-distance visitors will probably enjoy a few
of the castles and other historical places in Europe and Denmark,
including
Hamlet's castle "Elsinore."
Denmark is within striking distance of Norway and Sweden, as well as
Europe
and the UK. The Triode Audition Festival would make a perfect
centerpiece to
a longer vacation in one of these countries.
Weather is usually pleasant during August.
Temperature may drop below 20 degrees, but it is never severely cold.
Rain is possible, also it can sometimes be rather hot.
You will not need to bring winter-weight clothes, but a light sweater
and/or jacket will be fine - just in case.
Visit the official Danish Tourist Board's web site at :
http://www.dt.dk/
for more information.
We hope to make the Arhus Triode Audition Festival a success and we
welcome
feedback, suggestions, and above all, participation from anyone who is
interested. Please contact Kurt Steffensen with comments and questions,
and
thank you very much for your interest.
Sincerely,
Kurt Steffensen
Frederiksberg Torv 8
DK-8000 Arhus C
DENMARK
Ph + 45 86 197293
Email : kurt-steffensen@teliamail.dk
=========================================================================
From: David Crittle <retrovox@bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] LAST FESTIVAL BULLETIN BEFORE IMPACT
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 11:53:20 +1000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n618
wow! in awe and wishing i was there with my ears eyes stomach joes. no time
for me to change plans now!....it's a thousand kilometre road trip to the
nearest international airport, it's Friday lunchtime (soup and beer and
bourbon) and i'm still nine time zones away about 90 degrees too far south,
over 16000 kilometres as the crow flies. (Bloody fit crow, I reckon)
thanks kurt. enjoy, joes.
=========================================================================
From: David Crittle <retrovox@bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] LAST FESTIVAL BULLETIN BEFORE IMPACT
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 12:19:49 +1000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n618
>it's a thousand kilometre road trip
typo...
make that a thousand kilometre ROUND trip
=========================================================================
From: Rhthatcher@ra.rockwell.com
Subject: [JN] Last Night's Finds - Eico, Goodmans, etc
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 09:59:46 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n473
So my old landlord is moving and trying to clear out his basement...
My audiobudy and I went over to see what he had and I ended up
with:
4 Vintage tonearms
1 Goodman's Axiom 100mk2 16 Ohm
2 Eico tuners, no cases
2 speakers for my workbench
1 test speaker for the bench
1 Scott amp for the bench
Well, after searching the usual places and search engines, all I
can find out about the Goodman's speaker is that Goodman's
made a Model 80. Does anyone here know anything about the
100? It looks like a 12", but I didn't measure. It has a whizzer cone,
is 16 Ohm, and sounded full range (although it's not in a cabinet).
It is grey in color, says "24 W American Rating", has a paper cone.
Where could I get another? How much might another one cost?
Or, is anyone on this list itching for one?
Randy
=========================================================================
From: "Epstein, Jeremy" <JEpstein@ndbcap.com>
Subject: [JN] Last night's phono upgrade activity
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 10:05:42 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n954
Hi gang - I wanted to report in with some news concerning my phono setup.
You might remember a group purchase of Denon DL103D cartridges I got in on
(THANKS TO OZ, THE GREAT AND POWERFUL!) Well, the purchase took a while but
then it also took a while afterward for me to be ready to install the
cartridge in my turntable. That effort came to fruition last night amd I was
finally able to hear the Denon playing in my system.
I had appealed to the Joenet and gotten a pair of the red Altec 10:1 mic
step-up transformers (150:15K nominal) from J. Gordon Rankin (THANK YOU
GORDON!) and their gain seems to be just about right for matching up this
cartridge with my homebrew phono stage. These arrived a few weeks ago, but I
resolved to make a second arm wand & cable assembly for my Ladegaard air
bearing so I could swap from the Denon to my Grado and back without
disturbing the setup too much. (I listen to a lot of crappy, trashed
thift-store LP's and I expect I won't want to run the Denon through these
obstacle courses.)
Meanwhile I assembled a little box to install the step-ups, with a pair of
octal sockets, two RCA jacks and hardwired output cables. The load I chose
was to solder a 1K resistor across the cartridge side of the setup: this is
in parallel with the 470 ohm load reflected by the 47K resistor across the
secondary in the input of the preamp, and results in a 319 ohm loading
impedance. I may cut the 1K out and try the 470 ohm load, and I may try a 1M
resistor in the preamp to give me 1K reflected at the cartridge side, once I
get used to the sound this way. I can also set the Altec transformers up as
a 5:1 step-up (600:15K nominal) for some more options. Anyway it's a start.
Cutting to the chase, it will come as a surprise to no one that the Denon
represented a substantial upgrade over the Grado (their cheapest, the
Prestige Black.) I was particularly pleased in how I found myself responding
to the music I heard after the swap. I did not feel compelled to shift about
in the sweet spot, "resolving" the differences I heard. There was a big mess
on my kitchen counter from the project and I happily listened to music (NOT
the system) while I cleaned up, and I even got into a little hipshaking
while lsitening to Shuggie Otis' great reissue LP. When I did stop and try
to "quantify" what I was hearing, I heard about two octaves' extension at
the top with no "etching," nor compromise in the midrange sweetness,
especially vocals which this cartridge does a very good job with. I was
expecting the bass to sound "tight" or "dead" since the cartridge is brand
new but that was not really the case at all. The timing performance is a bit
different from the Grado - there is a definite difference in the frequency
response - but I like the Denon better so far, there is more speed and
plenty of power. The Shuggie Otis disc was particularly helpful in listening
for this and it got me dancing around! "Aht Uh Mi Hed" indeed! A Geiseking
Beethoven piano concerto also was slammin'. I tried a couple of 7" 45's with
very good results.
Tracking is excellent. Imaging is clean and precise. The mono image is
stable and sounds rich. Stereo spread is wide and symmetrical. Both channels
sound equally lively. I was particularly gratified to hear that there is
still no audible noise, rumble, or resonance coming from the Teres
turntable, even with the 10x larger step-up of the phono signal. Noise in my
phono stage is still acceptable although I think I need to install a power
line filter into it. This summer random noise has been pretty bad, I guess
because of the near-capacity demand here in NYC.
(Note that I am still using an unshielded prototype phono preamp, but now
with an MC cartridge - obviously there is room to improve the noise
performance but it is by no means objectionable. I can't believe it myself.)
The Denon is very musical and I look forward to more enjoyment with it.
Thanks again to OZ and JGR for all the good bits.
- -j
=========================================
Jeremy Epstein........jepstein@ndbcap.com
=========================================
=========================================================================
From: Richard C Nevill <rnevill@is.dal.ca>
Subject: Re: [JN] Last night's phono upgrade activity
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 22:29:00 -0300 (ADT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n954
Hey J and everyone,
For those of you that do have 103D's here is an intereting idea for a
stepup device. The old Hafler 101 preamps came with only a MM
phono stage. They then offered a stepup device that was battery powered
and sounded very nice with a 103D as I recall. 101's show up on ebay
fairly regulally
so maybe keep an eye out for them, just for the stepup device (assuming it
has one). 'course it is only solid state but could be an inexpensive
starting point.
Just a thought
Cheers
Richard Nevill
=========================================================================
From: "Paul Croft" <pcroft@iximd.com>
Subject: RE: [JN] Last night's phono upgrade activity
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 08:14:55 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n954
Hi Jeremy,
Congrats on getting the new setup going. This is really interesting. Whew,
your post brings a lot to mind.
I bought a Denon DL103 from PhonoPhono. It's not the D version. Its a plain
DL103, with no version suffix. Can you tell me the difference between the
two cartridges? Have you heard both to be able to compare the two? I gotta
admit, my Denon is pretty sweet, to my ears... Oh yes, do both have conical
stylii?
Thanks for your explanation of reflected impedance. I guess they taught me
this somewhere in the dim past, but for a long time I'd forgotten how it
worked. With your one, sure sentence, it all became clear. Wow, talk about
an epiphany! ;>) Jeez, as I re-read the sentence, it seems so obvious...
Well, I started writing this yesterday. Then I took a break to spin some
Leon Redbone. That led to some J.J. Cale. That led to... And now it's time
to go to work. Alas...
Cheers,
Paul
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-sound@lists.io.com [mailto:owner-sound@lists.io.com]On
> Behalf Of Epstein, Jeremy
> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 10:06 AM
> To: 'teres@aiko.com'; Phonogram (E-mail); Joenet (E-mail)
> Subject: [JN] Last night's phono upgrade activity
>
>
> Hi gang - I wanted to report in with some news concerning my
> phono setup.
>
> You might remember a group purchase of Denon DL103D
> cartridges I got in on
> (THANKS TO OZ, THE GREAT AND POWERFUL!) Well, the purchase
> took a while but
> then it also took a while afterward for me to be ready to install the
> cartridge in my turntable. That effort came to fruition last
> night amd I was
> finally able to hear the Denon playing in my system.
>
> I had appealed to the Joenet and gotten a pair of the red
> Altec 10:1 mic
> step-up transformers (150:15K nominal) from J. Gordon Rankin
> (THANK YOU
> GORDON!) and their gain seems to be just about right for
> matching up this
> cartridge with my homebrew phono stage. These arrived a few
> weeks ago, but I
> resolved to make a second arm wand & cable assembly for my
> Ladegaard air
> bearing so I could swap from the Denon to my Grado and back without
> disturbing the setup too much. (I listen to a lot of crappy, trashed
> thift-store LP's and I expect I won't want to run the Denon
> through these
> obstacle courses.)
>
> Meanwhile I assembled a little box to install the step-ups,
> with a pair of
> octal sockets, two RCA jacks and hardwired output cables. The
> load I chose
> was to solder a 1K resistor across the cartridge side of the
> setup: this is
> in parallel with the 470 ohm load reflected by the 47K
> resistor across the
> secondary in the input of the preamp, and results in a 319 ohm loading
> impedance. I may cut the 1K out and try the 470 ohm load, and
> I may try a 1M
> resistor in the preamp to give me 1K reflected at the
> cartridge side, once I
> get used to the sound this way. I can also set the Altec
> transformers up as
> a 5:1 step-up (600:15K nominal) for some more options. Anyway
> it's a start.
>
> Cutting to the chase, it will come as a surprise to no one
> that the Denon
> represented a substantial upgrade over the Grado (their cheapest, the
> Prestige Black.) I was particularly pleased in how I found
> myself responding
> to the music I heard after the swap. I did not feel compelled
> to shift about
> in the sweet spot, "resolving" the differences I heard. There
> was a big mess
> on my kitchen counter from the project and I happily listened
> to music (NOT
> the system) while I cleaned up, and I even got into a little
> hipshaking
> while lsitening to Shuggie Otis' great reissue LP. When I did
> stop and try
> to "quantify" what I was hearing, I heard about two octaves'
> extension at
> the top with no "etching," nor compromise in the midrange sweetness,
> especially vocals which this cartridge does a very good job
> with. I was
> expecting the bass to sound "tight" or "dead" since the
> cartridge is brand
> new but that was not really the case at all. The timing
> performance is a bit
> different from the Grado - there is a definite difference in
> the frequency
> response - but I like the Denon better so far, there is more speed and
> plenty of power. The Shuggie Otis disc was particularly
> helpful in listening
> for this and it got me dancing around! "Aht Uh Mi Hed"
> indeed! A Geiseking
> Beethoven piano concerto also was slammin'. I tried a couple
> of 7" 45's with
> very good results.
>
> Tracking is excellent. Imaging is clean and precise. The mono image is
> stable and sounds rich. Stereo spread is wide and
> symmetrical. Both channels
> sound equally lively. I was particularly gratified to hear
> that there is
> still no audible noise, rumble, or resonance coming from the Teres
> turntable, even with the 10x larger step-up of the phono
> signal. Noise in my
> phono stage is still acceptable although I think I need to
> install a power
> line filter into it. This summer random noise has been pretty
> bad, I guess
> because of the near-capacity demand here in NYC.
>
> (Note that I am still using an unshielded prototype phono
> preamp, but now
> with an MC cartridge - obviously there is room to improve the noise
> performance but it is by no means objectionable. I can't
> believe it myself.)
>
> The Denon is very musical and I look forward to more
> enjoyment with it.
> Thanks again to OZ and JGR for all the good bits.
>
> -j
> =========================================
> Jeremy Epstein........jepstein@ndbcap.com
> =========================================
>
=========================================================================
From: Christian Rintelen <christian@rintelen.ch>
Subject: Re: [JN] Last night's phono upgrade activity
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:39:12 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n954
the no-suffix 103 *must* be the one with the spherical stylus whereas the
103-D has an elliptical stylus. I don't want to reopen a can of worms with
spherical vs. elliptical stylii, but I prefer the sphericals.....
©
Paul Croft wrote:
> I bought a Denon DL103 from PhonoPhono. It's not the D version. Its a plain
> DL103, with no version suffix. Can you tell me the difference between the
> two cartridges? Have you heard both to be able to compare the two? I gotta
> admit, my Denon is pretty sweet, to my ears... Oh yes, do both have conical
> stylii?
>
=========================================================================
From: "Paul Croft" <pcroft@iximd.com>
Subject: RE: [JN] Last night's phono upgrade activity
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 07:00:10 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n956
Thanks, Christian!
Cheers,
Paul
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-sound@lists.io.com [mailto:owner-sound@lists.io.com]On
> Behalf Of Christian Rintelen
> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 9:39 AM
> To: Joelist
> Subject: Re: [JN] Last night's phono upgrade activity
>
>
> the no-suffix 103 *must* be the one with the spherical stylus
> whereas the
> 103-D has an elliptical stylus. I don't want to reopen a can
> of worms with
> spherical vs. elliptical stylii, but I prefer the sphericals.....
>
> ©
>
> Paul Croft wrote:
>
> > I bought a Denon DL103 from PhonoPhono. It's not the D
> version. Its a plain
> > DL103, with no version suffix. Can you tell me the
> difference between the
> > two cartridges? Have you heard both to be able to compare
> the two? I gotta
> > admit, my Denon is pretty sweet, to my ears... Oh yes, do
> both have conical
> > stylii?
> >
>
=========================================================================
From: "Kurt Th. Steffensen" <kurt-steffensen@teliamail.dk>
Subject: Last Re [JN] Triodes .....and AC mains
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 13:55:42 +0300
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n169
Sorry , Dave and all , for bringing this up again.
But I wrote this post in reply to Dave´s post , and accidently only sendt it to Dave.
I have allready had a reply from , Dave.(A good one indeed)
I realise by now , that he and I , actaully agrees a lot more than I could tell in the
first place.
I only want to post this , because it took so long to write , and I hope I have a few points , that
may help to a more cautious objective to draw conclusions.
I have shortent it .
I will also tell you a few of my secrets and maybe do an ad or two ,
about my good book. ( I did it again....)
Here we go:
Blind test is such a reliable and good tool to ourselfe, when we doubt.
You do not have to rely on any scientist,layman, circuit school or whatever.
Just listen your self.
B.T.´s IS the only tool at all , to avoid placebo´s and keeping us from hearing
what we want/not want or espect to hear.
What is wrong in trusting this million year old , perfect listening system ?
And it is a 100% real scientific and serius test.
After all our brain-ear system is the end user , and the only qualified judge
of the quality.
We must trust own ears , even in blind tests.
As for the AC-cables.- You belive we shall give it a try before commenting
on it.
Haven´t we all , tested these every time we connects a system ?
- - I have listened to so many,many different main cables during the years.
With all kinds of colors , finish and appearance.
And , I have experimented a lot with the main and how to deal with it.
I have developed main conditioners for lab use.
Yet , I have never witnessed these dramatic sonic effects from the colors of
the cables.(On any system)
I have asked Stewart to hear one of these cables , and he has kindly
given me the chance.
What more can you possible ask ?
>pointed out by changing that resistor, 4 other things change... I will
>suggest more than that changes...
I do not think , you read my post very carefully.
I wrote that , whenever chancing a single factor in electronics , at least three
is affected.
The importance of these factors depends.
I do not think more than the four factors mentioned , change in the specific example.
But that is also more than enough , as they all may influence the sound in many ways.
They depend on its other , (Or conflicts as you may prefere to put it ? )
>and what about how that part change
>effects the sound of the amplifier... there are those here that say a
>carbon comp resistor and a metal film of the exact same value as a grid
>resistor will change the sound of the amp... and people will call the
>design flawed... i just don't see it.
As I say , it does depends of many things.
You are now talking of different resistors. (I were not )
As for changing output transformer , or anything other major, that you mention ,
these have very dramatic effects.
And the nature of these effects , depends upon the circuits and the rest of the entire
system.
What might be lighter on your system , migh be darker or anything else on mine.
Or what might have significant effect in my system , might not even be heard in yours.
But what is changed out side the reproduction chain , has little or no significance.
- - Unless the system is rather poor designed.
Vacuum tubes are by nature rather unsensitive to temperature changes.
And these that might show in a normal living room , can not at all affect a tube
amplifier. ....(Well, unless bad lay out )
Humidity.?
Ditto , as above.
EMI. ?
Tubes does not care much about this. The circuits it selfes might be sensitive
to EMI.
But again , if only common sence is used , it is no problem.
RF.?
I rarely have any problems with this.
But when I do , it is allways due to my own bad engineering.
As for other phenonomens I have never noticed any effect
on my amplifiers.
Me:
>>Do you want you amplifier to change its sonics , as you turn the volume ?
>
>no, but that is a different thing, and many amplifiers do change sound we
>just don't hear it since our ears are more tuned to the drastic change in
>volume rather than a sight change in tone.
>
No , it is not a different thing.
And I take the greates care in my design , to avoid that turning the volume
pot , alters anything else , but the ....Volume.
I know of designs in which the frequency responce were effected by more
than 18dB , during this simple pot operation.
I would call that bad design ! (Really bad , in fact )
But the chap is due to find VERY big differences between volume pot´s ,
in his "extra sensitive" system.
He migh even belive that he has a special transparant system , and a better
hearing than most.
>yes but in order to make the argument a line must be drawn... if the grid
>resistor change adjusting the sound is a sign of poor design, is a power
>supply cap change effecting the sound another poor design???
It depends. Do you mean 1uF to 1000uF ?
But if a change with the same value , it is not sign of a bad designed amplifier.
It is the opposite.(And maybe bad design of the poor cap )
See how silly it is , just to jump in to conclusions ?
I calls such "coltclusions" , and that is very often practiced by us Audiophiles.
>how about
>output trannies???
>
Are you comparing the sonic effects of these to the input resistor ?
Hmm. Can I tell you a thing I have learned from many years of experimentations and listenings.
Imagine the reproduction chain , from source (PU or what ever) to the output
transformer.
The importance of the components in this chain kind of has a top in the beginning
of this chain , then softly drops to its lowest in the middle , line level , and again
raises to top at the output transformer.
And yet , evaluating the sonic characteristic of a resistor used in first stage pre-amplifier,
does not compare with the very same resistor at the output.
Take an Allen Bradley 2 Watt , carbon composition resistor as an example.
These are some of my favorites in the power amp stages.
But using these in the pre-amplifier , is bad engineering.
The noise will be so violent , that you will never come better than some 30-50´s dB.
Another example:
The same type of resistor , has quite different effect used as either grid,cathode or
anode resistor. - And it also depends on the circuit and of the previus and the following stages.
It even depend upon the Voltage over the resistor.
Carbon comp. , are best with high Voltage , and others , like the philips 1/4 W , standard
metal film , are best at low Voltages.
And to complicate it further , the same type of resistor , change in the value range ,
due to the construction methods , and the fact that they all have the same size...
Due to this I use a "selected resistor range".
(I used a Radiometer "component linearity tester".)
It measures third harmonics , depending on the Voltage over the resistors.
This compares very good to the sonics of the resistors.
Now , maybe you follow me , when I talk about the "coltclusions".
Any specific design depends upon the previus and the following circuits.
Clever designs try to push these effects as far away out side the audio range.
I regard this range as 2HZ to 200KHz.
Below and beyond this I only cares for noise,oscillations or unstable phenonomens.
And at line level , it is rather easy to make the line amplifier , non sensitive to quite
big differences at the output.
>
in order for your argument to be valid you either have
>to apply it to everything, or draw a hard line... neither of which will
>work.
Well, maybe not in your world , but I do draw some lines.
They are not sharp , but I draws them around the reproduction chain.
I do not care about the weather in another solar system.
Neiter do I care about how the electricity plant makes the main ,
(BTW , the one I am supplied from is hard wired ! ) as long as it is stable
and clean , neither do I care
about the color of the last meter of many thousands ,meters of the main cables.
(As long as it the same standard as the one in the net , I am totally satiesfied )
(Standards are however good here in Denmark)
> i just wanted to note that
>any of us who speak in absolutes will have to eat their words someday.
But I have no problem with eating my words again.
Why is it so bad to change ones mind , and viewpoints ?
Especially if somebody convience you with good arguments or listening test.
>exactly... IF you give it a try and hear nothing, that only means you
>don't have to worry about it... it doesnt' prove anything... all is fair
>as long as you actually try something.
That is fine with me.
But then you also have to respect others experiences and viewpoints against it.
After all , they may also be right.
>>On the other hand , if hearing these effects can not be done without seing
>>or by other way knowing that the stuff is connected , it looses sense to me.
>right, but if you do think you hear something, that is what should cause
>you to look farther...
Certainly. And it does , I swear.
So , I ended up replying to this post anyway.
:-)
But , Dave , please let´s stop it here , allright ?
If you like you can have the last word.
Let´s go back to the circuits.
Hmm , Did I mention a book , I plan.............. ?
- - Sincerely Kurt
=========================================================================
From: "Kurt Steffensen" <kurt-steffensen@teliamail.dk>
Subject: [JN] LAST TRIODE FESTIVAL NEWS
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 13:05:02 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n931
Ladies and Gentlemen... Århus 23/7-2001
This will be the last official news bulletin regarding the Festival.
A complete list of gear and equipment is impossible , as so many changes their list in last minute ,
and many has not yet in detail decided
what they will bring.
I have hired 48 double rooms , a few more small auditions rooms, and the big "concert-hall".
But apart from this , it is very much as last year.
We will have professional personal for the heavy tasks this year. Meaning kitchen , purchasing and c
leaning.
We will be about 80 persons to oversleep , including personal and kids.
- - about 40 Joes alone !!
What will happen during the weekend ?
Well , we will talk , discuss , laugh , teach and learn.
Enjoy the sunshine ( ? ) , and the nice enviroments. A few more laughs , and a lot of GOOD company.
...
We will have lectures , workshops , listening tests auditions , demos and experiments.
We will trade some of our parts and gear. Last year that was GREAT fun in the gym. hall. ( Fleamarke
t )
We will eat some good food and drink whatever we wish. ( Beer , water , wine , juice , limonade ,cok
e , coffee , tea , you name it )
There will be SE triode , SE direct heated triode , battery bias , auto bias , PSU bias and so on.
Some VERY exotic ones indeed. Some more common.
Here is some examples of triodes we will be listening to :
AD 1 , AD 100 , PX 4 , R 120 , 6B4G , 2A3 , 6A3 , 300B , 300B mesh , VV300B , AD 100 , RE 604 Globe
, RE 604 , U4H ,
PX 2450 , 45 , 245 , 10/VT 25 , RS 288 Mesh , 4683 , VT 52 Hytron , E406 , 275A , P15/250 , VT 62 ,
E408N , U4E8 , U4E Mesh , PX 25 Globe , PX 25 , PP5/400 , 50 , 250 , DA 60 , GM 100 and more.
Further we will have triode coupled beam/pentodes , PP designs.. Yups , and also some Output Transf
ormer Less constuctions.
Not to mention the well reputated AKSA amp kit.
Speakers en mass.. From closed ones to horns and ESL's. - Bert's new designs........ and some older
, I am told , Bahnsen Mammut Horns ,
Speakers from Jan Hass , Posselt minimal designs , Remco's mad 'statics , Tannoy coax gold , Altecs
, etc. and MAY-BE the Unity/Lambda hardcore speakers ........................
We will listen to Vinyls , on different Grammophones , and amplifiers. How about Simon's Phono stage
:
FET/subminature DHT battery powered cascode front end , just to mention one..
Many different PU's , SACD , DVD , and oscourse some CD players.
Guido's famous clocks , and Remco's weirdo designs and much more.
The Dutch gang that caught a lot of attention last year , will literally bring TONS of gear....
So much cool toy , that the list would be to long. Consider all the gear as a nice surprise :-)
We will also be auditioning Battery PSU's , series reg PSU's , shunt reg. PSU's , regular and 3-phas
e PSU' s !
This some of the things that can be experienced during the weekend.
Much more will happen. And just like last year , things that no one expects , are bound to take plac
e.
We will from time to time improvise a session or another experiment.
( The Dutch gang use to actually build stuff during the weekend !!! :-)
I think I have a surprise or two in the back of my hand.
Now , we will also have some lectures , workshops and prepared listening tests.
Ramco Stoujesdijk from Holland on "Class D".
Guido Tent from Holland as well on "Jitter".
Manfred Huber , Germany contineues last years PSU workshop.
Kurt Steffensen , Denmark holds a listening test on Power Triodes.
Some practical information:
Thursday and Monday is on me. You can come when you want Thursday , but excpect me to be busy.
We must start to pack down Sunday 4 PM. The audition rooms should be ready for the cleaning personel
at 7 PM.
Monday we all leave before 12 AM. - The teachers starts this day , preparing school.
I will organize a modest breakfeast for us.
Please , remember to bring your own sleeping bag. Those that travels by flight , can have new and cl
ean bed linnen supplied by me.
Please , let me know if you need such.
The price for the whole weekend is D.kr. 2000,00. per. person.
This includes ALL.
Children below the age of 12 are free of charge as long as they do not take up a whole bed.
There is a good chance , that they can have a bed anyhow , as I hold some rooms free. But just do no
t rely upon it , please.
Families gets a discount of - 10% if they book the entire weekend.
For persons that wishes to participate in another scedule , here are the details:
Friday to Saturday D.kr. 1200,- ( One sleep over , a spot in one of the audition rooms and fleamark
et and three daily meals )
Saturday to Sunday D.kr 1000,- ( One sleep over , a spot in a audition room and fleamarket and three
daily meals )
Friday only D.kr 450,- ( Including three meals and a little spot in one of the audition rooms and fl
eamarket , but no sleep over )
Saturday only D.kr 500,-( Including three meals and a little spot in one of the audition rooms and f
leamarket , but no sleep over )
Sunday only D.kr. 400,-( Including three meals and a little spot in one of the audition rooms and fl
eamarket , but no sleep over )
The Festival will be open to visitors Saturday and Sunday.
9AM to 4 PM , at Saturday ,
and 10 AM to 3 PM Sunday..
The public are necasary to us in many ways.
They do ad something special to the weekend , and it is a great chance to meet new people , and to s
how our gear.
Last , but not least , I need to earn my pay from the entrance fee.
300 tickets is minimum !
DRIVING INSTRUCTIONS:
The school is called "Eriksminde Efterskole" ( = Eriks Memorial Boarding School" )
It is located between ODDER and HOU , 20 km south of ÅRHUS.
It is VERY easy indeed to find.
Coming from the German border , follow the main road against Århus.
About 20 km before Århus , you will see a sign showing "Odder". Turn right here , and forward to Odd
er.
In Odder a circle drive will show you of to Hou towards the coast.
A "Triode Festival" sign is also up in this circle drive. ( Only two such roundabouts , in that smal
l town , and they are both close to one another )
A few km out of this road towards Hou , a sign will show "Eriksminde efterskole" to the left.
One km out this road , and the school is at your right hand.
You simply can't miss it.
If you come by car North of Århus , the same directions holds true. You only need to pass Århus by 2
0 km. Signs will direct you to Odder.
If you come by train , you will need to change in Århus.
FInd the train to Odder , it is one of the tracks down the hall. ( The last one , as far as I rememb
er )
This train , a small local train , will take you to the terminus Odder. ( The train drives between Å
rhus and Odder )
Outside the station , take a taxi to "Eriksminde Efterskole".
( 15 minutes and D.kr 60 or so , I guess )
You can always call me on the mobile if you are in doubt.
Thats it.
Thank you for reading.
See you all soon.
I am really , really looking forward to meet you all.
Old faces and new faces.
We will have a wonderfull weekend.
- - Yours sincerely
Kurt Steffensen
Frederiksberg Torv 8
DK-8000 Århus C
DENMARK
Phone: ( + 45 ) 8619 7293
Phone: ( +45 ) 8730 0996
Phone : ( +45 ) 8613 0654
Mobile : ( + 45 ) 2512 9293 ( This is probably your best chance , around the time of the festival )
Email adress:
kurt-steffensen@teliamail.dk
or
kurt-steffensen@pappagallo.dk
Here is a link to the festival. It shows other links with lots of pix from last year. ( Thanks a lot
to Jim Kort and all other homepages )
www.triodefestival.net
=========================================================================
From: "Gales, Frank" <frank.gales@sap.com>
Subject: RE: [JN] LAST TRIODE FESTIVAL NEWS
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 12:24:27 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n932
Hi Kurt,
is it possible that you have not mentioned the date when the whole thing
happens neither on the website nor in this mail?
Okay for many paticipants it is clear, but it is anyway an important
information. :-)
Have fun.
Greetings,
Frank Gales
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kurt Steffensen [mailto:kurt-steffensen@teliamail.dk]
> Sent: Dienstag, 24. Juli 2001 13:05
> To: sound@io.com
> Subject: [JN] LAST TRIODE FESTIVAL NEWS
>
>
> Ladies and Gentlemen... Århus 23/7-2001
>
> This will be the last official news bulletin regarding the Festival.
>
> A complete list of gear and equipment is impossible , as so
> .....
=========================================================================
From: "Kurt Steffensen" <kurt@pappagallo.dk>
Subject: Sv: [JN] LAST TRIODE FESTIVAL NEWS
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 14:37:05 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n932
>Hi Kurt,
>is it possible that you have not mentioned the date when the whole thing
>happens neither on the website nor in this mail?
It is not only possible , it is exactly what happened....
What a beef...
It is on the websites , though , and it is mentioned in my earlier messages.
Still , you are absolutely right , and it is a silly mistake , one of those I use to do.
Sorry all people.
Thanks you for mentioning it , Frank :-)
It will take place the first weekend in August.
The date is 3-5 of August.
>Okay for many paticipants it is clear, but it is anyway an important
>information. :-)
>Have fun.
You are right.
Thanks a lot for your kind wishes , and help , Frank.
- - Kurt slightly blussing :-}
=========================================================================
From: Rhthatcher@ra.rockwell.com
Subject: [JN] Last Weekend's Cleveland Meeting
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:46:42 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n038
sorry you couldn't make it! we had a great time here. first: we had
Great Lakes beer, as well as 3 wonderful Belgian selections. I don't know
if you're a beer drinker, but it was fine stuff. My exemplars seem to have
a bass suckout and i thought it was a problem with the xover or something.
well, a friend dropped in a pair of WE300B's in place of my VV300B's and
the problem was solved. That was the most balanced, dynamic, musical
system i've had. I'd go so far as to say it's the best i've heard. maybe
my
ears are tuned to it or i've heard a lot of crappy systems or setups, but
to my ears i was thrilled. we did a power cord swap session because
one of the guys is a maker of cords and passive preamps. I heard a little
difference, but not $250 worth. We dropped in some 7119's into my new
5687 preamp, a little improvement. Nothing to write home about. the WE's
made the lion's share of the difference. We also whipped out
a wavelenth duetto and the bass extension was a little deeper. My thought
was the FS030's and the Welborne Laruel circuit would theoretically be
better
than the circuit in the Duetto, but maybe not. Better trannies but a mu
stage in
the welborne. the duetto is 6SL7 cap coupled to 300B i think. I guess i
could
yank the mu stage and see (if i borrow the amp again). the positioning of
the trannies
may make a good bit of difference, but i don't know. the Laurel with
WE300B's
was enough to keep me very happy.
More importantly, we spun tons of vinyl. Mingus Ah-Um was the big AB test
record. We heard beatles, sonny rollins, 70's rock, 90's alternative,
awful
audiophile [great sonics, horrid "music"] test cd's (not mine!), blues, a
few
things we got from mapleshade, 10000 maniacs, tracy chapman, peter
gabriel, mile davis, to name a few. Very good music, beer, BS, and test
session. I'll alert the midwest joes for the next one. we always like to
hear
another opinion on systems, music, tweaking, etc!
no more upgrades, i just made an offer on a house and i'm a first time
buyer...
i think the final offer will go through today. i see remodeling a
basemtent
in my near future!
randy
=========================================================================
From: Derrick Beckner <dgb@psulias.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [JN] Last Weekend's Cleveland Meeting
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:55:36 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n039
But those big tax returns for all the mortgage you have to pay are great
for upgrades. :)
I also have my system in my basement, unfortunately it is partitioned, so
one wall of the room is paneled cinder block, the other is just panel.
Jacking up the bass on the one speaker seems to an okay fix, but there is
still quite a difference.
>no more upgrades, i just made an offer on a house and i'm a first time
>buyer...
>i think the final offer will go through today. i see remodeling a
>basemtent
>in my near future!
>
>randy
>
>
>
>
*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
Vote for the Meadow Party
Bill n' Opus 2000
....ack....
A dead cat has no moral entanglements
Derrick Beckner
=========================================================================
From: Joseph Lowe <jlowe@cdc.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Las Vegas
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:32:22 -0500 (EST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n077
On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Peter Drake wrote:
> I hope to be going to Las Vegas between 16-22 April.
> Any Joes in the area want to meet up ?
I will be in booth L12859 at the NAB. Hope to see you there.
Joe
=========================================================================
From: Peter Drake <peterd@ndsuk.com>
Subject: [JN] Las Vegas
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:39:46 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n077
I hope to be going to Las Vegas between 16-22 April.
Any Joes in the area want to meet up ?
- --
Pete Drake
peterd@ndsuk.com
http://www.ndsworld.com
=========================================================================
From: David Suess <ds10760@pace.medtronic.com>
Subject: [JN] Late night with Dave&Dave
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:46:05 -0600 (CST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n104
Well, not all that late...
Finally hooked up with joelist member Dave Stagner last night. Got to
listen to his PP 6b4g amp on the Whamos. I gotta make a pair of these
speakers! Even my little 5842 spud sounded good on these speakers. And
the evening reinforced my credo -- if it sounds good, it's good and if
it's cheap it's even better!!
Both Dave's amp and my spud sounded almost effortless on these speakers.
And hearing his PP 6b4g usng the (cheap) Allied IT made me want to go
home and start ripping apart my Dyna Mark IV's and putting a 5842/IT
front end on them. And then change the EL34's over to 6b4g's.
Also got introduced to some new music which is always fun. And Dave's
kids even got into the act with their own boogie dancing. We even did a
little 5842 tube tasting with my spud and I got to go home with a new
pair to play with courtesy of Dave.
All in all, an evening well spent...
- - david suess
=========================================================================
From: "Ed Coleman" <ecoleman@whidbey.net>
Subject: [JN] Laterz
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 21:09:39 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n867
Hey Josers , life is getting to busy , time to bail for awhile , thanks for
the ride , I got a couple of misc. stuff on ebay listed under
ecoleman@whidbey.net Happy trails ! Ed
=========================================================================
From: "Daniel J. Marshall" <danmarshall@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [JN] Latest Project
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 10:57:47 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n332
Hi All,
I have started rebuilding a pair of EICO HF-22 amps. Since I am
starting from stripped chasses I can easily use any circuit I choose. I
am pretty well settled on an all triode, no feedback design, preferably
using filament-type output tubes. I have a good selection of pentodes
that could be used as triodes in this amp (6L6G/GA/GC, 6BG6, Philips
7581A, KT66, 5881, 6AR6, EL34, etc.). In filament types I only have
6B4Gs, 2A3s and SV811-10s, The plate voltage is approximately 450 volts
in the HF-22, too high for old-stock 6B4Gs and 2A3s, and a bit low for
the SV811-10s. I would rather not change the power trannies and hardly
have room for a suitable input choke, plus, I would like to get some 20
Watts, or so, from them. So, I am considering the new Sovtek SP 6B4Gs
which were recently mentioned here. Is there any late-breaking news on
them as far as pricing, availability and who will be stocking them?
Have specifications been published? Also, if anyone has the specs
available, or any general information, do they indicate whether they
would operate satisfactorily at 450 Vp at 8,000 PP load? I suppose
300Bs would be ideal, but I have not researched the economic feasibility
of this. Hopefully, the new SP 6B4Gs will be more economical and yet
provide satisfactory performance.
The 8k plate load would seem a bit high for the SP 6B4Gs, but at the
higher plate voltage and at a lower plate current, perhaps would be OK,
though some here are advocates of higher plate current and lower
voltages for the 2A3 family. The 8k should be about right for pentodes
in triode mode.
For the front end, I intend to use either the classic Williamson circuit
replacing the EF86 with a 6CG7 (9 pin 6SN7) and retaining the 6SN7, but
wiring it as a differential driver instead of a cathodyne phase splitter
(with the phase splitting moved to the first stage) or perhaps Allen
Wright's front end, the one he uses with EL34s in triode. Has anyone
compared Allen's circuit with the classic Williamson circuit? Allen?
I intend to add a small, approximately one henry choke in the PS and
carefully select the cap values for optimal recovery w/o overshoot and
ringing when subjected to abrupt load variations. Playing with Duncan's
PS designer program, this seems to fall in place with a moderate-sized
input filter cap (~20 uf), a smaller choke (~1 H) and a fairly large
output cap, say 500 uf. The exact values are dependant upon the
resistances of the choke, power transformer and rectifier. I did take a
quick look at an existing amp with a choke input filter and noted that
the PS voltage did indeed exhibit some ringing when hit with an abrupt
load, moreso when the load was removed than applied. I have not
determined whether this is audible. It would depend, to a large
extent, on the rest of the circuit, including the time constants in the
rest of the PS and whether the other stages are SE or differential, at
least one would think. I will probably also supply the driver stage
from the same large output cap to minimize cascading time constants in
the PS (somehow this seems to trouble me, cascading too many time
constants) and perhaps will regulate the voltage to the input tube, or
stagger its time constant, decouple with a diode, whatever.
Any sage advice on the best approach to take, esp with regard to the new
SP 6B4Gs and the driver circuit, i. e., Willamson vs Wright?
Dan Marshall
=========================================================================
From: "David B. Klein" <dklein@microtec.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Latest Project
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 14:23:14
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n332
A 10:57 AM 11/14/99 -0800, Daniel J. Marshall a écrit :
>
>Any sage advice on the best approach to take, esp with regard to the new
>SP 6B4Gs and the driver circuit, i. e., Willamson vs Wright?
>
>Dan Marshall
>
Hi, Dan,
When those amps were mine I ran 'em off a huge tube-regulated industrial
high-voltage supply and those power trannies weren't even on the chassis.
They were in my attic, which is why the power trannies were rusty and the
output trannies weren't. <G>
Best,
David
=========================================================================
From: Garyj74@aol.com
Subject: [JN] Latest T. Loesch Pre Amp?
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:36:58 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n897
- --part1_f4.ab7a3b6.28492cba_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hey Guys,
Where are we with the latest Thorsten derivation to his phone pre? Does
anybody have his latest schematic, or better yet, are there any builders out
there with experience shopping for J-Fets, resistors, caps, and general
layout information?
Thanks,
Gary
- --part1_f4.ab7a3b6.28492cba_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Hey Guys,
<BR>
<BR>Where are we with the latest Thorsten derivation to his phone pre? Does
<BR>anybody have his latest schematic, or better yet, are there any builders out
<BR>there with experience shopping for J-Fets, resistors, caps, and general
<BR>layout information?
<BR>
<BR>Thanks,
<BR>
<BR>Gary
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>
- --part1_f4.ab7a3b6.28492cba_boundary--
=========================================================================
From: Loesch Thorsten <TORSTEN.LOESCH@enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk>
Subject: RE: [JN] Latest T. Loesch Pre Amp?
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 10:09:19 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n899
Hi,
>Where are we with the latest Thorsten derivation to his phone pre?
My "latest" is still the same as published on my website.
> are there any builders out there with experience shopping for
J-Fets,
> resistors, caps, and general layout information?
Pictures on my layout are on my website.
Many of the kind of components I like are native to europe.
ERO KP1832 Capacitors (which I like for coupling) are available from
www.steinmusic.de <http://www.steinmusic.de> Substitutes include
Arcotronics KP 1.72 and Hovland
JFET's are currently on sale www.schuro.de, otherwise there are many
sources, including I believe Vacuum State Electronic
(http://www.vacuumstate.com/) and possibly cryod ones from Bill Pearl.
For resistors use Mills in all anode circuits and smaller non
inductive Rohpoint wirewounds (no easily accessible source in the US AFAIK)
or Caddock/Holco.
My own website is at:
http://thunderstoneaudio.nav.to/ <http://thunderstoneaudio.nav.to/>
Ciao T
=========================================================================
From: "Le Cleac'h Jean-Michel" <lecleach@paris.ensmp.fr>
Subject: [JN] L'Audiophile on CDRom
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 18:34:22 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n926
C'est un message de format MIME en plusieurs parties.
- ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C10E25.EE7972C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,
Nicolas Davidenko, a friend of mine, scanned the whole first serie of =
the famous French series l'Audiophile (from years 1977 to 1983 if I =
remember correctly that means from issues 1 to issues 43). He put the =
scanned pages under HTML format on CD-Rom.
An index page divided in section (loudspeakers, amplifiers...) helps to =
find any paper easily. The different pages are scanned as JPEG images =
but their quality is excellent and they print very well.
The CD-Rom contains 3500 pages, few papers from La Nouvelle Revue du Son =
on famous japanese audio systems are included on the CD-Rom.
I don't know the price but those who are interested may contact Nicolas =
Davidenko at:
ndaviden@club-internet.fr
Best regards from Paris,
Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h, Paris, France
P.S.: I don't have any commercial interst in that operation.
- ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C10E25.EE7972C0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3013.2600" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hello,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Nicolas Davidenko, a friend of mine, =
scanned the=20
whole first serie of the famous French series l'Audiophile (from years =
1977 to=20
1983 if I remember correctly that means from issues 1 to issues =
43)</FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>. He put the scanned pages under HTML format on=20
CD-Rom.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>An index page divided in section =
(loudspeakers,=20
amplifiers...) helps to find any paper easily. The different pages =
are=20
scanned as JPEG images but their quality is excellent and they print =
very=20
well.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The CD-Rom contains </FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>3500 pages, few papers from La Nouvelle Revue du Son on=20
famous japanese audio systems are included on the=20
CD-Rom.</FONT></DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<P>I don't know the price but those who are interested may contact =
Nicolas=20
Davidenko at:</P>
<P> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:ndaviden@club-internet.fr">ndaviden@club-internet.fr</A></=
P>
<P>Best regards from Paris,</P>
<P>Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h, Paris, France</P>
<P>P.S.: I don't have any commercial interst in that operation.</P>
<P> </P></FONT></BODY></HTML>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C10E25.EE7972C0--
=========================================================================
From: "Peter Empson" <empson@lineone.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] L'Audiophile on CDRom
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:42:38 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n961
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_0088_01C13A30.BF7A7780
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
I'd just like to add my recommendation for the l'Audiophile CD-rom =
(mentioned in the email below) as I have just received my own copy. I =
don't speak French but the diagrams and photos will keep me entertained =
for many hours.
Well worth the money IMO. I just wish there were more magazines about =
like this (if anyone knows of any others then please let me know!).
Peter.
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Le Cleac'h Jean-Michel=20
To: Joenet (E-Mail)=20
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 5:34 PM
Subject: [JN] L'Audiophile on CDRom
Hello,
Nicolas Davidenko, a friend of mine, scanned the whole first serie of =
the famous French series l'Audiophile (from years 1977 to 1983 if I =
remember correctly that means from issues 1 to issues 43). He put the =
scanned pages under HTML format on CD-Rom.
An index page divided in section (loudspeakers, amplifiers...) helps =
to find any paper easily. The different pages are scanned as JPEG images =
but their quality is excellent and they print very well.
The CD-Rom contains 3500 pages, few papers from La Nouvelle Revue du =
Son on famous japanese audio systems are included on the CD-Rom.
I don't know the price but those who are interested may contact =
Nicolas Davidenko at:
ndaviden@club-internet.fr
Best regards from Paris,
Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h, Paris, France
P.S.: I don't have any commercial interst in that operation.
- ------=_NextPart_000_0088_01C13A30.BF7A7780
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4616.200" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'd just like to add my recommendation =
for the=20
l'Audiophile CD-rom (mentioned in the email below) as I have just =
received my=20
own copy. </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I don't speak French but =
the diagrams=20
and photos will keep me entertained for many hours.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Well worth the money IMO. I just wish =
there were=20
more magazines about like this (if anyone knows of any others then =
please let me=20
know!).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Peter.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dlecleach@paris.ensmp.fr =
href=3D"mailto:lecleach@paris.ensmp.fr">Le=20
Cleac'h Jean-Michel</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dsound@lists.io.com=20
href=3D"mailto:sound@lists.io.com">Joenet (E-Mail)</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 16, 2001 =
5:34 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [JN] L'Audiophile on =
CDRom</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hello,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Nicolas Davidenko, a friend of mine, =
scanned the=20
whole first serie of the famous French series l'Audiophile (from years =
1977 to=20
1983 if I remember correctly that means from issues 1 to issues=20
43)</FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>. He put the scanned pages under =
HTML format=20
on CD-Rom.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>An index page divided in section =
(loudspeakers,=20
amplifiers...) helps to find any paper easily. The different =
pages are=20
scanned as JPEG images but their quality is excellent and they print =
very=20
well.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The CD-Rom contains </FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>3500 pages, few papers from La Nouvelle Revue du Son on=20
famous japanese audio systems are included on the=20
CD-Rom.</FONT></DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<P>I don't know the price but those who are interested may contact =
Nicolas=20
Davidenko at:</P>
<P> <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:ndaviden@club-internet.fr">ndaviden@club-internet.fr</A></=
P>
<P>Best regards from Paris,</P>
<P>Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h, Paris, France</P>
<P>P.S.: I don't have any commercial interst in that operation.</P>
<P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0088_01C13A30.BF7A7780--
=========================================================================
From: "Peter Empson" <empson@lineone.net>
Subject: [JN] L'Audiophile on CD Rom
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:33:36 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n971
Hi,
The cost, including carriage to the UK, was $US35 or 270FF. I sent the cash
in an envelope and, to be honest, wasn't expecting much in return- i'm a
pessimist after all! The gamble paid off. The index is logical (it has to
be, there are hundreds of pages after all) and works well. The pages are
scanned directly from the magazine and are clearly readable.
There is an article on modifications for the 103 but I can't guarantee it's
the one you're after (from issue 21 dated Nov 1981)- it appears to cover
making a mould of the cart body. As I said I don't speak French (sadly) so I
bought it for the speaker plans and circuit diagrams. I am currently
savouring an article on MR Sato's system- I was always curious about his
horns and now can see all of the plans.
If you need any more information please contact me.
Thanks Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h for alerting me (via the Joenet) to the
existence of the disc and Nicolas Davidenko for producing it.
BTW: Fairly obvious I hope, but I had better point out that I am just a
satisfied customer, I am in no way connected to the author of this disc.
Peter.
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: [JN] L'Audiophile on CD Rom
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:28:01 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n971
Hi all,
Cannot add anything to this, the disc is a gem !
Guido
At 19:33 14-9-01 +0100, Peter Empson wrote:
>Hi,
>The cost, including carriage to the UK, was $US35 or 270FF. I sent the cash
>in an envelope and, to be honest, wasn't expecting much in return- i'm a
>pessimist after all! The gamble paid off. The index is logical (it has to
>be, there are hundreds of pages after all) and works well. The pages are
>scanned directly from the magazine and are clearly readable.
>There is an article on modifications for the 103 but I can't guarantee it's
>the one you're after (from issue 21 dated Nov 1981)- it appears to cover
>making a mould of the cart body. As I said I don't speak French (sadly) so I
>bought it for the speaker plans and circuit diagrams. I am currently
>savouring an article on MR Sato's system- I was always curious about his
>horns and now can see all of the plans.
>If you need any more information please contact me.
>Thanks Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h for alerting me (via the Joenet) to the
>existence of the disc and Nicolas Davidenko for producing it.
>BTW: Fairly obvious I hope, but I had better point out that I am just a
>satisfied customer, I am in no way connected to the author of this disc.
>Peter.
=========================================================================
From: "Peter Empson" <empson@lineone.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] L'Audiophile on CD Rom
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 20:19:11 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n975
Sorry Peter, Craig, Guido and Andrew, I forgot to post it with the original
messages. I have included all the previous emails below for further
information.
The man responsible for the disc is Nicolas Davidenko, he can be contacted
at:
ndaviden@club-internet.fr
If anyone wants any further unbiased info please do not hesitate to contact
me.
Peter.
- ----- Original Message -----
>Peter,
>
>I remember reading about this CD ROM, but didn't keep the information on
>where to order it. Could you send that to me? It sounds like a very
>interesting product....
>
>Thanks.
>
>Craig Preston
Peter Empson wrote:
>
> Hi,
> The cost, including carriage to the UK, was $US35 or 270FF. I sent the
cash
> in an envelope and, to be honest, wasn't expecting much in return- i'm a
> pessimist after all! The gamble paid off. The index is logical (it has to
> be, there are hundreds of pages after all) and works well. The pages are
> scanned directly from the magazine and are clearly readable.
> There is an article on modifications for the 103 but I can't guarantee
it's
> the one you're after (from issue 21 dated Nov 1981)- it appears to cover
> making a mould of the cart body. As I said I don't speak French (sadly) so
I
> bought it for the speaker plans and circuit diagrams. I am currently
> savouring an article on MR Sato's system- I was always curious about his
> horns and now can see all of the plans.
> If you need any more information please contact me.
> Thanks Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h for alerting me (via the Joenet) to the
> existence of the disc and Nicolas Davidenko for producing it.
> BTW: Fairly obvious I hope, but I had better point out that I am just a
> satisfied customer, I am in no way connected to the author of this disc.
> Peter.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: C.snoeren
To: Peter Empson
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: [JN] L'Audiophile on CDRom
Hi Peter
What did the CD cost included shipping?
Peter Empson schreef:
Hi,I'd just like to add my recommendation for the l'Audiophile CD-rom
(mentioned in the email below) as I have just received my own copy. I don't
speak French but the diagrams and photos will keep me entertained for many
hours.Well worth the money IMO. I just wish there were more magazines about
like this (if anyone knows of any others then please let me know!).Peter.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Le Cleac'h Jean-Michel
To: Joenet (E-Mail)
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 5:34 PM
Subject: [JN] L'Audiophile on CDRom
Hello, Nicolas Davidenko, a friend of mine, scanned the whole first serie
of the famous French series l'Audiophile (from years 1977 to 1983 if I
remember correctly that means from issues 1 to issues 43). He put the
scanned pages under HTML format on CD-Rom. An index page divided in section
(loudspeakers, amplifiers...) helps to find any paper easily. The different
pages are scanned as JPEG images but their quality is excellent and they
print very well. The CD-Rom contains 3500 pages, few papers from La Nouvelle
Revue du Son on famous japanese audio systems are included on the CD-Rom.I
don't know the price but those who are interested may contact Nicolas
Davidenko at:
ndaviden@club-internet.fr
Best regards from Paris,
Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h, Paris, France
P.S.: I don't have any commercial interst in that operation.
=========================================================================
From: Jeff Mai <jeff.mai@home.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] L'Audiophile on CD Rom
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 12:24:32 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n975
I agree! Very nice job!
Jeff
At 1:28 PM -0500 9/16/01, Carter Hendricks wrote:
>I spent a couple hours last night with this
>huge stack of old French l'Audiophile
>magazines. OK they aren't as much fun as
>real magazines. But this CD is really
>well done, full of -cool- ideas, and a
>real must-have. I encourage everyone to
>put $35 in an envelope and send it to
>Nicolas!!
>
> --Carter
>
> > The man responsible for the disc is Nicolas
> > Davidenko, he can be contacted
> > at:
> > ndaviden@club-internet.fr
>
> > > Thanks Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h for alerting
> > > {us!} to the existence of the disc and
> > > Nicolas Davidenko for producing it.
=========================================================================
From: Carter Hendricks <carter@i1.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] L'Audiophile on CD Rom
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 13:28:22 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n975
I spent a couple hours last night with this
huge stack of old French l'Audiophile
magazines. OK they aren't as much fun as
real magazines. But this CD is really
well done, full of -cool- ideas, and a
real must-have. I encourage everyone to
put $35 in an envelope and send it to
Nicolas!!
--Carter
> The man responsible for the disc is Nicolas
> Davidenko, he can be contacted
> at:
> ndaviden@club-internet.fr
> > Thanks Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h for alerting
> > {us!} to the existence of the disc and
> > Nicolas Davidenko for producing it.
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: [JN] laughing my ass off
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 22:30:08 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n795
Hi all,
Just managed to climb back on my chair, where I used to sit. I fell off
reading about kimber cable
Russ Andrews writes about " Unique woven cable design effectively removes
mains interference" and "Kimber earth weave is a special low inductance,
low impedance cable, for ultimate performance"
Pitty to see them degradng to this kinda bullshit: The make pretty decent
sounding interlinks !
I read all this in Russ Andrews new Catalogue. To make it worse, he even
sells standard, of the shelf Wima 100nF X2 capacitors for over 6
dollar.........(a piece)
just had to let you know
Guido
=========================================================================
From: "Jon Lane" <jhlane@reflexnet.net>
Subject: RE: [JN] laughing my ass off
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 18:21:52 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n796
> Just managed to climb back on my chair, where I
> used to sit. I fell off
> reading about kimber cable
Almost fell of mine reading this, laughing.
The sad thing is that these cable Renoir's almost lend
credibility to the flat-earthers at Audio Critic and at
various other "scientific" audio soirees.
Jon Lane
=========================================================================
From: Phil <tube@jump.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] laughing my ass off
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 20:32:15 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n796
Jon Lane wrote:
> > Just managed to climb back on my chair, where I
> > used to sit. I fell off
> > reading about kimber cable
>
> Almost fell of mine reading this, laughing.
>
> The sad thing is that these cable Renoir's almost lend
> credibility to the flat-earthers at Audio Critic and at
> various other "scientific" audio soirees.
>
> Jon Lane
That's a depressing thought. I keep secretly hoping that Peter
Axcel will suddenly discover that tubes, cables, etc. really do
make a difference, and will actually start saying so in print!
Hold my breath, huh ...
Suffocating Phil
=========================================================================
From: "Jon Lane" <jhlane@reflexnet.net>
Subject: RE: [JN] laughing my ass off
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 21:43:56 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n796
> That's a depressing thought. I keep secretly
> hoping that Peter
> Axcel will suddenly discover that tubes, cables,
> etc. really do
> make a difference, and will actually start saying
> so in print!
The Marching Woofer and Tweeter guys have a tremendous value
to audio, but maybe mostly as isolated pieces of a
fragmented science. The research can be impressive if not
conclusive - nobody has the definitive word on what sonic
elements the ear finds most honest or in what order.
Perhaps great hifi really calls for balancing dozens of
those priorities and variables against one another, not
polishing one or two to perfection. If so, that's not a
science, it's an art.
Besides, there's no fun in that ville. They are the
Anti-Marcy!
Jon Lane
=========================================================================
From: Roscoe Primrose <roscoe@aiko.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] laughing my ass off
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 21:50:01 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n796
Phil wrote:
>
> That's a depressing thought. I keep secretly hoping that Peter
> Axcel will suddenly discover that tubes, cables, etc. really do
> make a difference, and will actually start saying so in print!
>
> Hold my breath, huh ...
>
> Suffocating Phil
Even if he does figure it out, he'd probably never admit it in print,
too much egg would end up on his face....
Peace
- --
Roscoe Primrose
- -- mailto:roscoe@aiko.com -- http://www.aiko.com/roscoe --
"Once in a while you get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right." Robert Hunter
=========================================================================
From: TubeGarden@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] laughing my ass off
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 07:08:28 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n796
- --part1_b4.10ae6f3d.27a95a3c_boundary
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In a message dated 1/30/01 9:47:37 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
jhlane@reflexnet.net writes:
> Besides, there's no fun in that ville. They are the
> Anti-Marcy!
>
Yup.
Mastering the science is useful for employment.
But, well-informed sex is an oxymoron :)
Happy Ears!
Al B^}
- --part1_b4.10ae6f3d.27a95a3c_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated 1/30/01 9:
47:37 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
<BR>jhlane@reflexnet.net writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px
; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Besides, there's no fun in that ville. They are the
<BR>Anti-Marcy!
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR>Yup.
<BR>
<BR>Mastering the science is useful for employment.
<BR>
<BR>But, well-informed sex is an oxymoron :)
<BR>
<BR>Happy Ears!
<BR>Al B^}</FONT></HTML>
- --part1_b4.10ae6f3d.27a95a3c_boundary--
=========================================================================
From: "Thomas Sylvester" <TRS@carlsmith.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] laughing my ass off
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 13:43:56 -1000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n796
You folks seem to think that Aczel is still "in" print. A single copy of the last AC issue (the one
with the "My car radio sounds better than your Dynalab/Accuphase/Marantz 10B" article) has been gra
cing the shelves of the local Borders for at least four months now - and I believe Borders only had
one issue to start with . . .
>>> Roscoe Primrose <roscoe@aiko.com> 01/30/01 04:50PM >>>
Phil wrote:
>
> That's a depressing thought. I keep secretly hoping that Peter
> Axcel will suddenly discover that tubes, cables, etc. really do
> make a difference, and will actually start saying so in print!
>
> Hold my breath, huh ...
>
> Suffocating Phil
Even if he does figure it out, he'd probably never admit it in print,
too much egg would end up on his face....
Peace
- --
Roscoe Primrose
- -- mailto:roscoe@aiko.com -- http://www.aiko.com/roscoe --
"Once in a while you get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right." Robert Hunter
=========================================================================
From: "spaaaz" <spaaaz@ameritech.net>
Subject: [JN] laurels
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 20:03:27 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n312
well i finished my laurels tonight they look and sound great
ron should be comended on a top notch amp design.the birdseye maple
bases are stunning.now if my soliloquy 2a3s would arrive i would be in
heaven.any recomendations on a pre amp kit.im using a ps audio 6.0
at this time a rega planar 3 table, a rega planet cd player.nordost
interconnects.are there any nice pre amp kits out there for maybe 500.00
ive looked at the forplay and wonder if there is better?
mlm
=========================================================================
From: Richard C Nevill <rnevill@is.dal.ca>
Subject: [JN] Lauren Bacall (To have and ...)
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 23:27:07 -0400 (AST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n768
Just a quick note for you L.B. fans. Click on this URL and it will take
you to a place to find the Trailer for To Have and Have Not
http://amazon.imdb.com/Trailers/ASIN=0790743515?0037382
Enjoy
Richard Nevill
=========================================================================
From: Owen Young <oyoung@clear.net.nz>
Subject: [JN] LA visit
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 19:44:58 +1200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n267
Am planning a few days trip to LA from downunder here in a fortnight.
Any tips on fringe audio must-sees or vinyl record stores(s/hand, new)
worth a visit? Or affordable live music!
Also any Joes care for a quick howdy, etc?
Thanks
Owen Young
=========================================================================
From: "PEARL Cust Serv" <custserv@pearl-hifi.com>
Subject: [JN] "Law-faked" 10-turn Pots (Was..Alps potentiometer question)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:15:56 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n043
>From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
>>>BP wrote:
>>> Although I never thought to listen to one, I have seen 100K, 10-turn
>>>pots. It's a bit of a project to gang two together but the linearity
>>>is +- 1% and that can usually be tweaked to better than 1/3 of that.
> Allen Wright wrote:
>>I have a gut feeling that they could be quite a sleeper component. I
>>recently bought some 50K's to try but have been too busy to fit them. When
>>measured they are NOT flat - at certain percentages of rotation they peak
>>up a square wave for sure - but maybe that's no worse than regular pots
>>rounding them off.
€ Allen: Did you have only a scope probe connected to the wiper (if so,
what's it's stray 'C') or did you mimic the input admittance of a
10-20dB-gain, common cathode, triode gain block? What was the rise time of
your square wave, what was the fundamental of the 'peak?
If not, it's a reasonable guess, imo, to expect that the peaking you saw
would be tamed to a great extent by such a load. This is not to say that ALL
of the sonic effects would disappear, only that that they might be somewhat
alleviated... Note once again that with a little tweaking, you can make
things track like the girl-watcher that I KNOW you must be (lol).
And, with a 'fiddled' 20K law-faker and 10-turn resolution you just
MIGHT get a pretty workable gizmo. . . and. . .
Wouldn't thaaaat beeee lover-ly. . . lover-ly. . . lover-ly €
Bill - PEARL
>>
>>And if you used the 10 turn ones you would not need to law fake them as you
>>would have more than enough resolution...
>>Allen (VSE)
>>
> I believe the ten-turns do not sound OK, though I did not listen to them
>
> Guido
. . . the proof of the puddin'. . . my friend
=========================================================================
From: Allen Wright <AllenVSE@compuserve.com>
Subject: [JN] "Law-faked" 10-turn Pots (Was..Alps potentiometer question)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:42:23 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n044
BP asked:
>>> Allen: Did you have only a scope probe connected to the wiper (if so,
what's it's stray 'C') or did you mimic the input admittance of a
10-20dB-gain, common cathode, triode gain block?<<<
Used the probe at X1 and X10 and with various amounts of added extra
capacitance and or series R/series C.
This changed the F of the peak but I could not find a match that was flat
at all settings of the pot, but I didn't give it too much time.
>>> What was the rise time of your square wave<<<
HP3312A funct gen...Fast!
>>> what was the fundamental of the 'peak?<<<
Don't remember - maybe 35-50kHz - certainly above the _regular_ audio band
but not up in RF land.
>>>it's a reasonable guess, imo, to expect that the peaking you saw would
be tamed to a great extent by such a load<<<
Will try it, promise.
>>>with a little tweaking, you can make things track like the girl-watcher
that I KNOW you must be<<<
Got me in one, there! In fact, if I had the same level of audio skill that
I have for girl tracking, everyone else could just close up shop!
>>>And, with a 'fiddled' 20K law-faker and 10-turn resolution you just
MIGHT get a pretty workable gizmo. . .<<<
I can't use a law faker in my applic as I need the pot impedance to be
constant at all settings to advoid changing the RIAA network loading - but
this complication at least means I don't have to use a CF at the end of my
phono stage...
And for those who are SP subscribers - I have sent Diego a PCB for my
SuperReg, and asked him for a date for a preamp shootout in the Spring. We
shall see what happens...
Unbiased European JoeNetters are invited to apply for umpire status!
Allen (VSE)
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: [JN] "Law-faked" 10-turn Pots (Was..Alps potentiometer question)
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 22:46:33 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n044
>> I believe the ten-turns do not sound OK, though I did not listen to them
>>
>> Guido
>
>. . . the proof of the puddin'. . . my friend
That is true, but if they would sound OK it would be non-consistent with my
theory. Maybe I am afraid.....
Which ten-turn should I try ?
Have fun
Guido
=========================================================================
From: Bill Sadler <sadlerb@mweb.co.za>
Subject: [JN]re:Law Faking Pots
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 09:21:03 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n921
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Hi Joes,
Bill Perkins comments are interesting in that I am using 8 Sfernice 1 =
meg 5% pots in Parallel, 4 per channel giving a 250K pot with a 20K =
faking resistor. This pot sounds fantastic and I can't tell the =
difference against an expensive 25k Ladder Attentuator except for the =
fine adjustment of level which I now have. The volume progression is =
very good making the 1:10 faking resistor about right. The pot is being =
used as a passive on the end of an Arthur Loesch's SP #3 Phono stage =
built into a rehashed Cary SLP 90 Linestage chassis. The Cary line stage =
electronics was a joke so that had to go but the chassis is very good =
looking.
Regards=20
Bill=20
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi Joes,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bill Perkins comments are interesting =
in that I am=20
using 8 Sfernice 1 meg 5% pots in Parallel, 4 per channel giving a 250K =
pot with=20
a 20K faking resistor. This pot sounds fantastic and I can't tell the=20
difference against an expensive 25k Ladder Attentuator except =
for the=20
fine adjustment of level which I now have. The volume progression is =
very good=20
making the 1:10 faking resistor about right. The pot is being used as a =
passive=20
on the end of an Arthur Loesch's SP #3 Phono stage built into a rehashed =
Cary=20
SLP 90 Linestage chassis. The Cary line stage electronics was a joke so =
that had=20
to go but the chassis is very good looking.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bill </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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=========================================================================
From: Joe Roberts <jroberts@io.com>
Subject: [JN] Law faking scheme
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 15:42:32 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n921
Check this one out....seems better than the old 10X value pot (if hi-R
pots are less good)
http://www.sound.au.com/project01.htm#top
I use pots but don't inhale...
Joe
=========================================================================
From: TubeGarden@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Law faking scheme
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 18:48:38 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n921
- --part1_99.1751becd.2878ebc6_boundary
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In a message dated 7/5/01 1:42:59 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
jroberts@io.com writes:
> http://www.sound.au.com/project01.htm#top
Greets!
I just replaced 10K audio taper with 25K linear and 3.9K from wiper to ground.
:)
Happy Ears!
Al B^}
schemes like music 2 me
- --part1_99.1751becd.2878ebc6_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated 7/5/01 1:4
2:59 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
<BR>jroberts@io.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px
; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">http://www.sound.au.com/project01.htm#top</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 F
AMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Greets!
<BR>
<BR>I just replaced 10K audio taper with 25K linear and 3.9K from wiper to ground.
<BR>
<BR>:)
<BR>
<BR>Happy Ears!
<BR>Al B^}
<BR>
<BR>schemes like music 2 me</FONT></HTML>
- --part1_99.1751becd.2878ebc6_boundary--
=========================================================================
From: "PEARL Cust Serv" <custserv@pearl-hifi.com>
Subject: [JN] Lawyerin'
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:25:38 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n047
The Fine Art of Cross Examination
Recently reported in The Journal of Massachusetts Bar Association,
the following are questions actually asked of witnesses by attorneys during
trials and, in certain cases, the responses given by insightful witnesses:
1. "Now doctor, isn't it true that when a person dies in his sleep, he
doesn't know about it until the next morning?"
2. "The youngest son, the twenty-year old, how old is he?"
3. "Were you present when your picture was taken?"
4. Q: "Doctor, before you performed the autopsy, did you check for a
pulse?"
A: "No.
Q: "Did you check for blood pressure?"
A: "No."
Q: "Did you check for breathing?"
A: "No."
Q: "So, then it is possible that the patient was alive when
you began the autopsy?"
A: "No."
Q: "How can you be so sure, Doctor?"
A: "Because his brain was sitting on my desk in a jar."
Q: "But could the patient have still been alive
nevertheless?"
A: "It is possible that he could have been alive and
practicing law somewhere."
5. "Was it you or your younger brother who was killed in the war?"
6. "Did he kill you?"
7. "How far apart were the vehicles at the time of the collision?"
8. "You were there until the time you left, is that true?"
9. "How many times have you committed suicide?"
10. Q: "So the date of conception (of the baby) was August 8th?"
A: "Yes."
Q: "And what were you doing at that time?"
Later . . .
Q: "She had three children, right?"
A: "Yes
Q: "How many were boys?"
A: "None."
Q: "Were there any girls?"
11. Q: "You say the stairs went down to the basement?"
A: "Yes."
Q: "And these stairs, did they go up also?"
12. Q: "Mr. Slatery, you went on a rather elaborate honeymoon, didn't
you?"
A: "I went to Europe, Sir."
Q: "And you took your new wife?"
13. Q: "How was your first marriage terminated?"
A: "By death."
Q: "And by who's death was it terminated?"
14. Q: "Can you describe the individual?"
A: "He was about medium height and had a beard."
Q: "Was this a male, or a female?"
16. Q: "Is your appearance here this morning pursuant to a deposition
notice which I sent to your attorney?"
A: "No, this is how I dress when I go to work."
17. Q: "Doctor, how many autopsies have you performed on dead people?"
A: "All my autopsies are performed on dead people."
18. Q: "All your responses must be oral, OK? What school did you go
to?"
A: "Oral."
19. Q: "Do you recall the time that you examined the body?"
A: "The autopsy started around 8:30 p.m.."
Q: "And Mr. Dennington was dead at the time?"
A: "No, he was sitting on the table wondering why I was doing an
autopsy."
20. Q: "You were not shot in the fracas?"
A: "No, I was shot midway between the fracas and the navel."
21. Q: "Are you qualified to give a urine sample?"
A: "I have been since early childhood."
Bill Perkins, PEARL Inc.
2528 19 St. S.W., Calgary, Ab.,
Canada T2T 4X3
Ph. 1 403 244 4434 Fx. 1 403 244 9026
=========================================================================
From: John Levreault <jlevro@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Lawyerin'
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:54:28 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n049
PEARL Cust Serv wrote:
> The Fine Art of Cross Examination
>
> Recently reported in The Journal of Massachusetts Bar Association,
> the following are questions actually asked of witnesses by attorneys during
> trials and, in certain cases, the responses given by insightful witnesses:
<big snip>
And doctors are no better.
When my younger son was 10, he was playing Little League baseball. We had
dropped him off at practice, but when we returned, one of the other parents
came running over to tell us that Eric had badly cut his knee. He had
apparently kneeled down onto a piece of glass embedded in the ground.
We rushed him to the local emergency room (as with all 10-year olds, we, the
parents, were more upset about this than he was), where he was examined by a
physician who asked, "Did you see the piece of glass before you kneeled on
it?", to which Eric replied, "If I saw it, I wouldn't have kneeled on it."
JL
=========================================================================
From: SBench@aol.com
Subject: [JN] L Bridge
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 20:55:51 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n919
Hi Joes,
There's also a schematic of the first phase of the Owens
L bridge at
http://members.aol.com/sbench102/owens2.gif
No article yet though. Bridge will measure 10mH to 321Hy
as drawn. Any comments or requests welcomed.
Best Regards,
Steve
=========================================================================
From: Timo Christ <carnivor@uni-bremen.de>
Subject: [JN] LCLC PSU Filter
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 20:50:15 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n341
Hello All !
I wish to learn more about LCLC supply voltage filtering. I want to
build a LCLC filtered supply for an opamp and am quite uncertain how to
design it.
I have tried to apply 4th order butterworth formulas to this problem but
if i aim for low cutoff frequency lowpass filters i get very large
inductances which are impossible to implement for me (physically too
large and unobtainable).
What i want to do looks like this:
L1 L2
- --~~~-+--~~~---+----+- VCC
| | |
___ ___ X
C1 ___ C2 ___ X R1
| | |
- ------+--------+----+- GND
Values practical to me are L up to 100mH, C 4400uF, R1 as low as 100 Ohm
(absolute limit). The Voltage is 20 V.
R1 lower is theoretically very nice, with 10 Ohm i could build a 10 Hz
lowpass but i can't cope with excessive dissipation (40W)of it.
Maybe I'm doing this completely wrong - I have no literature about LC
filters and didn't find practical stuff even in the uni library.
I'm hoping for new insights from you experienced folks ! :-)
Any formulas or examples or opinions appreciated.
Seasons Greetings,
Timo
- --
Timo Christ
EE Student University of Bremen, Germany
carnivore@uni-bremen.de
http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~carnivor/
=========================================================================
From: John Levreault <jlevro@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR Phono
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:44:58 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n813
"Michael (Mick)Maloney" wrote:
>
> I finally got the LCR phono finished and sounding good- the finished design
> ended up being a lot different than what a few Joes originally saw- so if
> any of you phurryphonophreaks are interested it's at
> <http://www.cantech.net.au/~supra/7788-6GK5-6SN7LCR.html>
> There's a bit more detail there than I'm entitled to go into here.
> Analouge and digital CAN live together.
> BTW if anyone has a handle on Pspice(I dont) I would be very interested to
> see how the RIAA stacks up.
Mick-
I just happened to have the Tango modeled. Curiously, the RIAA accuracy
is virtually unaffected by errors in the source impedance. I think
Manfred has commented on this for lower source impedances, but I've now
confirmed it for higher source Z. (I estimated the 7788tc rp as about
2K). However, the loss increases from 6dB for a 600ohm source to about
13dB for a 2K source, as I think you'd expect. That may lead to some
dulling of the sound as you attempt to bring things back up.
JL
=========================================================================
From: thomas.mayer@philips.com
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR Phono
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:54:46 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n813
Hi Mick!
Great work! Thanks for sharing your results.
In the description on your web page you mentioned that you had poor
results with a transformer driving the LCR network. Was that also based on
listening results or on measurements only ?
Now you're driving the LCR straight from the 7788 through a cap. I don't
have the specs of this tube in my head, but aren't the 600 Ohms of the LCR
a bit of a tough load of the tube ? isn't that about 0.75 times the rp ?
Best regards ... Thomas
=========================================================================
From: "Michael (Mick)Maloney" <supra@cantech.net.au>
Subject: [JN] LCR Phono
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:45:07 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n813
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I finally got the LCR phono finished and sounding good- the finished design
ended up being a lot different than what a few Joes originally saw- so if
any of you phurryphonophreaks are interested it's at
<http://www.cantech.net.au/~supra/7788-6GK5-6SN7LCR.html>
There's a bit more detail there than I'm entitled to go into here.
Analouge and digital CAN live together.
BTW if anyone has a handle on Pspice(I dont) I would be very interested to
see how the RIAA stacks up.
MickM
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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=========================================================================
From: TubeGarden@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR Phono
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:47:45 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n814
- --part1_f5.771f33f.27c52101_boundary
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In a message dated 2/21/01 6:22:28 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
thomas.mayer@philips.com writes:
> I believe that is a reason, why many people hear sound differences between
>
Greets!
Me, too.
The other is the tubes :)
Happy Ears!
Al B^}
- --part1_f5.771f33f.27c52101_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated 2/21/01 6:
22:28 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
<BR>thomas.mayer@philips.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px
; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> I believe that is a reason, why many people hear sound differences betwe
en
<BR>different brands/vintages of tubes in phono preamps. </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR>Greets!
<BR>
<BR>Me, too.
<BR>
<BR>The other is the tubes :)
<BR>
<BR>Happy Ears!
<BR>Al B^}
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>
- --part1_f5.771f33f.27c52101_boundary--
=========================================================================
From: "Phil Sieg" <psieg@nxs.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR phono
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:12:30 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n814
Thomas,
Any thoughts or experience with the Sowter line transformers like the 9063?
Down 3 dB at 90K, seems like it could be flipped for
10K:600--->LCR--->600:10K. It, too, would work in a parafeed arrangement
and is less expensive than the Jensen unit.
Phil
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <thomas.mayer@philips.com>
To: <supra@cantech.net.au>
Cc: <sound@lists.io.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 21 February, 2001 10.48
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR phono
> Mick,
>
> > Whether I will be able to find transformers to work with a 7788 and
drive
> > the networks to 50KHz plus is another thing.
>
> in my vinylsavor phonostage I use the a Jensen line output transformer
> in a parafeed arrangement to drive the LCR:
>
> http://www.jensen-transformers.com/datashts/10k611m.pdf
>
> I use this transformer with a EC8020 which I believe has a similar
> rp as a 7788 in triode.
>
> Regards ... Thomas
>
=========================================================================
From: Simon Busbridge <S.C.Busbridge@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR Phono
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:36:38 +0000 (GMT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n814
Hi,
What is the main advantage of using L in the phono equalisation?
Thanks
Simon
Simon Busbridge, BSc(Hons) PhD CPhys MInstP
School of Engineering
University of Brighton
Lewes Road
Moulsecoomb
Brighton BN2 4GJ
UNITED KINGDOM
Tel: 0044 (0)1273 642542
Fax: 0044 (0)1273 642327/642301
e-mail: s.c.busbridge@bton.ac.uk, scbusbridge@hotmail.com
=========================================================================
From: thomas.mayer@philips.com
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR Phono
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:26:15 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n814
Hi!
> I just happened to have the Tango modeled. Curiously, the RIAA accuracy
> is virtually unaffected by errors in the source impedance. I think
> Manfred has commented on this for lower source impedances, but I've now
> confirmed it for higher source Z. (I estimated the 7788tc rp as about
I would have expected this, since one of the key benefits of
this RIAA network is it's constant input impedance
of 600 Ohms across the frequency range. I once dug up all my
long forgotten mathematic skills and calculated the input
impedance of this network, when it's terminated with 600 Ohms.
After pages and pages of formulas, I could resolve the equation
and all the capacitive and inductive elements cancelled out, leaving
a plain 600 Ohms impedance.
So the only effect of different driving impedances is a different
insertion loss.
Thomas
=========================================================================
From: thomas.mayer@philips.com
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR Phono
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:29:18 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n814
Hi Simon,
> What is the main advantage of using L in the phono equalisation?
I can't say that there is generally an advantage in using L's in
the phone eq. So far I only have tried the 600 Ohm LCR network.
There are other possibilities like LR networks which I haven't
tried (yet).
For me there are two big advantages in the 600 Ohm LCR EQ:
- - low impedance
I generally like low impedance circuits. All my components
have transformercoupled outputs with Zouts of 200 Ohms
or less. In my experience this reduduces the risk of hum and
noise pick up and always had sonic benefits when I tried it.
- - constant impedance, independant of frequency
This means that the LCR EQ presents the same load to the
driving stage across the frequency range. When the driving
stage's tube ages, this won't affect the RIAA accuracy, as is
the case with conventional passive EQ. I believe that is a reason,
why many people hear sound differences between different brands/vintages
of tubes in phono preamps. Whenever they change a tube which drives the
EQ, it will have a slightly different rp, which will result in
a different EQ curve und thus different coloration.
The latter advantage can also be achieved with common passive RC EQs.
Before I got my LCR networks, I already set up the phonostage with
transformercoupling but used a passive compound RC EQ. This was driven
with a low impedance of 200 Ohms. The EQ network had an input impedance
from 20.000 Ohms up, depending on frequency. Terminating the driving
transformer with 600 Ohms resulted in very little frequency dependant
change of the load of the driving tube. This already gave me a big
part of the sound quality of the LCR network.
I would encourage anyone who plans to build a LCR phonostage to try this
first. Set up the driving stage such, that it will be able to cope with
a 600 Ohm load. Terminate it with 600 Ohms and place a regular high
impedance RC network after the terminating resistor. This will already
tell you if such a topology yields a sound you like. If you don't
like it, don't bother to spend the money for a LCR EQ. If you like
it, you will be able to enjoy the sound improvement in two steps. Simply
replace the RC network and 600 Ohm resistor with a proper LCR EQ.
This all is based on my personal experience and taste. As always: YMMV
Best regards ... Thomas
=========================================================================
From: "Le Cleac'h Jean-Michel" <lecleach@paris.ensmp.fr>
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR Phono
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:09:11 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n814
- -----Message d'origine-----
De : Michael (Mick)Maloney <supra@cantech.net.au>
À : sound@lists.io.com <sound@lists.io.com>
Date : mardi 20 février 2001 15:19
Objet : [JN] LCR Phono
>I finally got the LCR phono finished and sounding good- the finished design
>ended up being a lot different than what a few Joes originally saw- so if
>any of you phurryphonophreaks are interested it's at
><http://www.cantech.net.au/~supra/7788-6GK5-6SN7LCR.html>
>There's a bit more detail there than I'm entitled to go into here.
>Analouge and digital CAN live together.
>BTW if anyone has a handle on Pspice(I dont) I would be very interested to
>see how the RIAA stacks up.
Hello,
What capacitor value did you use between the 7788 and the LCR equaliser?
(I calculated that we should use at minimum 20 microfarads....)
Best regards,
Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h, Paris, France
=========================================================================
From: thomas.mayer@philips.com
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR phono
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:48:15 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n814
Mick,
> Whether I will be able to find transformers to work with a 7788 and drive
> the networks to 50KHz plus is another thing.
in my vinylsavor phonostage I use the a Jensen line output transformer
in a parafeed arrangement to drive the LCR:
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/datashts/10k611m.pdf
I use this transformer with a EC8020 which I believe has a similar
rp as a 7788 in triode.
Regards ... Thomas
=========================================================================
From: thomas.mayer@philips.com
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR phono
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:43:46 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n814
Phil,
> Any thoughts or experience with the Sowter line transformers like the 9063?
> Down 3 dB at 90K, seems like it could be flipped for
> 10K:600--->LCR--->600:10K. It, too, would work in a parafeed arrangement
> and is less expensive than the Jensen unit.
Sorry, but I have no experience with Sowter Signaltransformers
Thomas
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR Phono
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:58:22 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n814
At 11:36 21-2-01 +0000, Simon Busbridge wrote:
>Hi,
>
>What is the main advantage of using L in the phono equalisation?
No waste of audio energy, to me that is
Guido
>Thanks
>
>Simon
>
>Simon Busbridge, BSc(Hons) PhD CPhys MInstP
>School of Engineering
>University of Brighton
>Lewes Road
>Moulsecoomb
>Brighton BN2 4GJ
>UNITED KINGDOM
>
>Tel: 0044 (0)1273 642542
>Fax: 0044 (0)1273 642327/642301
>e-mail: s.c.busbridge@bton.ac.uk, scbusbridge@hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: thomas.mayer@philips.com
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR phono
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:24:29 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n814
Phil,
> Any thoughts or experience with the Sowter line transformers like the 9063?
I looked at the datasheet of this transformer. I see no reason why this
unit shouldn't work in this application. However as I said, I haven't
used Sowter Signaltrannies and can't comment on their sound quality.
Thomas
=========================================================================
From: thomas.mayer@philips.com
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR Phono
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:28:58 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n814
Guido,
> >What is the main advantage of using L in the phono equalisation?
>
> No waste of audio energy, to me that is.
Why would the use of L's mean no waste of audio energy, while
C's would waste it ??? A passive EQ network with inductors has
the same 20dB loss as the more commonly used RC networks. They
both have some insertion loss on top of that, depending on the
particular implementation.
Thomas
=========================================================================
From: "Michael (Mick)Maloney" <supra@cantech.net.au>
Subject: [JN] LCR phono
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:04:55 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n814
- --=======25B64FB6=======
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-8EE3380
Steve Bench was, as usual, very generous to do a Psice on the LCR RIAA I
used in my 7788-6GK5 phono, and suggested a couple of small changes to get
it closer to the curve.
I tried these and it did sound more accurate but the sound went a bit too
far to the bright side for my liking.
This reinforces my belief that accurate RIAA doesn't always produce the
ideal sound and final tuning is up to your ears preferences. Some people
cant seem to live with the concept of an "incorrect" circuit but give me
auditory enjoyment any day.
I'll do some tuning and update the circuit.
I'm starting to think that Phil's idea to split the LCR into two sections
is a much better way to go- there are just too many compromises with one
stage , and introducing another stage would just about gaurantee low MC
levels would be ok, but next time I want to drive the networks with
transformers .
Whether I will be able to find transformers to work with a 7788 and drive
the networks to 50KHz plus is another thing.
Anyone want to comment on this , bearing in mind that a good quality
(NOS)transformer I previously used failed miserably.
MickM
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=========================================================================
From: John Levreault <jlevro@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR Phono
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:55:42 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n815
evaguido wrote:
>
> Thomas,
>
> You can store energy in capacitors / chokes, but they do not dissipate. As
> a result no energy is thrown away, and no information gets lost.
One does not follow the other.
JL
=========================================================================
From: John Levreault <jlevro@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR Phono
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 09:51:08 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n815
evaguido wrote:
>
> >evaguido wrote:
> >>
> >> Thomas,
> >>
> >> You can store energy in capacitors / chokes, but they do not dissipate. As
> >> a result no energy is thrown away, and no information gets lost.
>
> Then At 08:55 22-2-01 -0500, John Levreault wrote:
> >One does not follow the other.
>
> John, could you eleborate ?
Guido-
Just because no energy is "thrown away" in a given component does not
mean that information doesn't get lost. Purely reactive elements
_reflect_ energy, causing it to be dissipated someplace else, like in
the source resistance. And this ignores the fact that in the real world,
components do in fact dissipate energy. ESR in caps, series R in chokes,
that kind of stuff. It's the _minimization_ of these dissipative losses
that will, I suspect, have a beneficial effect on the sound.
I do like Thomas's explanation of why the LCR EQ sounds good. A low
operating impedance that is constant with frequency is in many ways a
good thing. However, and I say this without any experience as to the
sonic consequences, terminating such a constant-impedance network in its
characteristic impedance, 600ohms in the case of the Tango EQ and its
derivatives, means that there will only be ONE reflection back to the
source. If mismatched, that reflection will keep happening, and the
signal will sort of "rattle around" until completely dissipated.
I'm looking at this from 2 points of view. In video and RF, one
minimizes reflections by optimizing both the source and load impedance
for a given network. The effect is clearly visible in a video system.
This impedance-matching also maximizes POWER transfer. And, from the
erudite posts of Mr. Dunker, this may be analogous to what's happening
at the amplifier/loudspeaker interface as well.
However, there's probably some kind of sonic tradeoff which favor lower
driving point impedances into the EQ network, like 200ohms as Thomas
(Mayer) suggests. As you decrease the source impedance relative to the
characteristic impedance of the network, the losses decrease. But this
sounds to me like we're increasing the damping factor of the driving
amplifier, just like in a speaker/amp, which may not always be a good
thing.
Thomas (Mayer and Dunker), any comments on this power transfer issue?
JL
=========================================================================
From: John Levreault <jlevro@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR Phono
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:18:43 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n815
thomas.mayer@philips.com wrote:
>
> I had discussions with people about the power transfer issue.
> And from that corner comes the argument of driving the LCR network
> with 600 Ohms source impedance. But that would mean that the driving
> tube needs to be loaded with 1 times it's rp. Although we're dealing with
> small signal levels here I'd still prefer to load the tube with somewhat
> higher impedances. Hence my preference for 200 Ohms or lower. this
> presents a load to the driving tube which is 3 times it's rp.
Excellent point. Thanks.
JL
>
> Regards ... Thomas
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR Phono
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:49:02 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n815
Thomas,
You can store energy in capacitors / chokes, but they do not dissipate. As
a result no energy is thrown away, and no information gets lost.
so far
best regards
Guido
At 18:28 21-2-01 +0100, thomas.mayer@philips.com wrote:
>Guido,
>
>> >What is the main advantage of using L in the phono equalisation?
>>
>> No waste of audio energy, to me that is.
>
>Why would the use of L's mean no waste of audio energy, while
>C's would waste it ??? A passive EQ network with inductors has
>the same 20dB loss as the more commonly used RC networks. They
>both have some insertion loss on top of that, depending on the
>particular implementation.
>
>Thomas
=========================================================================
From: thomas.mayer@philips.com
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR Phono
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:36:48 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n815
Guido,
> You can store energy in capacitors / chokes, but they do not dissipate. As
> a result no energy is thrown away, and no information gets lost.
I still don't see, why this should be relevant in this particular
case of a EQ network. I actually heard people arguing against using
L's in addition to R's and C's in the EQ due to the same fact.
They claimed that too many energy storing elements in a filter or
EQ network should be avoided.
Thomas
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR Phono
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:42:12 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n815
Hello Thomas,
At 13:36 22-2-01 +0100, thomas.mayer@philips.com wrote:
>Guido,
>
>> You can store energy in capacitors / chokes, but they do not dissipate. As
>> a result no energy is thrown away, and no information gets lost.
>
>I still don't see, why this should be relevant in this particular
>case of a EQ network. I actually heard people arguing against using
>L's in addition to R's and C's in the EQ due to the same fact.
>They claimed that too many energy storing elements in a filter or
>EQ network should be avoided.
I guess you may have to be carefull with Q of the networks. Personally I do
not have experience with LC based RIAA networks, but I do have experience
with gain stages in general and i like the use of iron (as you do....)
regards
=
Guido
>Thomas
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR Phono
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:07:13 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n815
>evaguido wrote:
>>
>> Thomas,
>>
>> You can store energy in capacitors / chokes, but they do not dissipate. As
>> a result no energy is thrown away, and no information gets lost.
Then At 08:55 22-2-01 -0500, John Levreault wrote:
>One does not follow the other.
John, could you eleborate ?
bets regards
- -
Guido
>JL
=========================================================================
From: thomas.mayer@philips.com
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR Phono
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:10:03 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n815
> However, there's probably some kind of sonic tradeoff which favor lower
> driving point impedances into the EQ network, like 200ohms as Thomas
> (Mayer) suggests. As you decrease the source impedance relative to the
> characteristic impedance of the network, the losses decrease. But this
> sounds to me like we're increasing the damping factor of the driving
> amplifier, just like in a speaker/amp, which may not always be a good
> thing.
>
> Thomas (Mayer and Dunker), any comments on this power transfer issue?
I think damping factor is not really an issue when driving such
a network as compared to driving a speaker. While a speaker represents
a load with a wildly varying impedance with respect to frequency,
the LCR remains constant. So choosing the source impedance is more
a matter of the loss you will get. However, when using a transformer,
getting lower source impedance typically means greater step down,
which also results in a loss (of gain).
So far I implemented LCR phonostages with 200Ohms driving the
network and 50 Ohms. I did not find sonic differences which I
would attribute to the different source impedance.
I had discussions with people about the power transfer issue.
And from that corner comes the argument of driving the LCR network
with 600 Ohms source impedance. But that would mean that the driving
tube needs to be loaded with 1 times it's rp. Although we're dealing with
small signal levels here I'd still prefer to load the tube with somewhat
higher impedances. Hence my preference for 200 Ohms or lower. this
presents a load to the driving tube which is 3 times it's rp.
Regards ... Thomas
=========================================================================
From: Martin Seddon <mseddon@iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR Phono
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 22:15:35 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n815
When implementing an LR RIAA 75uS EQ filter driven by a 600 Ohm
transformer output how does the primary / secondary winding inductance
effect the time constant?
ie if R=600, L= 0.045H +/- ??
Will there then be enough inductance swing on music programme to interact
with the time constant?
Sounds so easy - wind an air cored inductor and fine tune with the R. But
I just bet it's in the no free lunch category.
Martin
=========================================================================
From: "Currie, Patrick" <Patrick.Currie@doa.state.wi.us>
Subject: RE: [JN] LCR Phono
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:33:17 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n816
Isn't this a situation tailor-made for paralleled input tubes? Lower noise,
lower rp. Of course there may be religious objections ... - Pat
- -----Original Message-----
From: John Levreault [mailto:jlevro@mediaone.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 11:19 AM
To: thomas.mayer@philips.com
Cc: sound@lists.io.com
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR Phono
thomas.mayer@philips.com wrote:
>
> I had discussions with people about the power transfer issue.
> And from that corner comes the argument of driving the LCR network
> with 600 Ohms source impedance. But that would mean that the driving
> tube needs to be loaded with 1 times it's rp. Although we're dealing with
> small signal levels here I'd still prefer to load the tube with somewhat
> higher impedances. Hence my preference for 200 Ohms or lower. this
> presents a load to the driving tube which is 3 times it's rp.
Excellent point. Thanks.
JL
>
> Regards ... Thomas
=========================================================================
From: "Phil Sieg" <psieg@nxs.net>
Subject: [JN] LCR RIAA
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 16:31:06 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n804
Dave, Joes,
OK, I lied. Turns out I had *.gifs of two that I forgot about. All three
are on the X-drive under Schematics/LCR RIAA. Thomas, please check and
verify that I have represented your design for your 801A preamp correctly.
Everyone else, check for errors.
All info anyone can add about any of these networks greatly appreciated.
Phil
=========================================================================
From: "Phil Sieg" <psieg@nxs.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR RIAA
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:05:26 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n804
Thomas,
>
> In my 801A phonostage I use the same network as in the Tango EQ600
> but with discrete parts, not the other one.
Hmmm, wonder where j got it? I'll take it down until we can get some
verification it works.
I have never seen the thrid
> alternative you provided, the Tremaine RIAA, anyone tried this ?
Don't know how old it is. Tremaine has copyrights of 1959 and 1969. My
copy is the 7th edition (1978). So it had to be in the 1st edition of the
'69 copyright. Don't know if it was in '59, too.
That's the rub. We know the Tango "works". Presumably the other one does,
too, but with a lot more components. Anybody have the basic equations used
to calculate these networks?
Phil
>
> Thomas
>
=========================================================================
From: David Home <David_Home@creoscitex.com>
Subject: RE: [JN] LCR RIAA
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:47:33 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n804
Hi Phil.
I had a look at the schematics. Thanks for posting them.
They are quite varied and I will need to take some time to study them
better.
Right off the bat, they all share one thing in common: the need to be driven
from a 600 ohm source.
To my thinking, the only way to drive this from a tube is with a ~5:1
transformer or from a mu / white cathode follower.
Any attempts to work with the latter in my experience, have not been
sonically satisfying.
An SP issue had the Tango network driven from a 6DJ8 wired as a mu. Is this
the only way?
Regards, David
- -----Original Message-----
From: Phil Sieg [mailto:psieg@nxs.net]
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 10:31 PM
To: Joe List
Subject: [JN] LCR RIAA
Dave, Joes,
OK, I lied. Turns out I had *.gifs of two that I forgot about. All three
are on the X-drive under Schematics/LCR RIAA. Thomas, please check and
verify that I have represented your design for your 801A preamp correctly.
Everyone else, check for errors.
All info anyone can add about any of these networks greatly appreciated.
Phil
=========================================================================
From: Christian Rintelen <christian@rintelen.ch>
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR RIAA
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:13:13 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n804
David Home wrote:
> Right off the bat, they all share one thing in common: the need to be driven
> from a 600 ohm source.
The Tango LCR is terminated with a 600 ohm resistor. The input Z can be even
lower than 600, but it shouldn't be higher.
>
> To my thinking, the only way to drive this from a tube is with a ~5:1
> transformer or from a mu / white cathode follower.
so.... what's wrong with using a transformer?? (Depending on the Rp of the
tube, you might get away with a 3:1 or even less.
> An SP issue had the Tango network driven from a 6DJ8 wired as a mu. Is this
> the only way?
Here are some links to pages with Tango LCR implementations:
<http://www.teleport.com/~tube/71aeqsce.jpg>
<http://www2.cds.ne.jp/~yogawa/phonoeq/hontai/eq.htm#eq>
Christian
=========================================================================
From: thomas.mayer@philips.com
Subject: RE: [JN] LCR RIAA
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:02:35 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n804
Dave,
I think the proper way to drive such a LCR network from a tube is
through a step down transformer. The coupling cap for other
approaches would need to be huge (47uF and up).
Phil,
In my 801A phonostage I use the same network as in the Tango EQ600
but with discrete parts, not the other one. I have never seen the thrid
alternative you provided, the Tremaine RIAA, anyone tried this ?
Thomas
=========================================================================
From: David Home <David_Home@creoscitex.com>
Subject: RE: [JN] LCR RIAA
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:55:26 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n804
Hi guys.
>so.... what's wrong with using a transformer?? (Depending on the Rp of the
>tube, you might get away with a 3:1 or even less.
Well I wouldn't even be considering this direction if I thought there was
anything wrong with more iron! 8^)
Still, the amount of iron needed to do this approach in a purist way is
considerable. For a moving coil cartridge, an 1:10 input transformer seems a
must. Using a cascode seems impossible due to the resulting high plate
impedance. Follow that with a step down transformer ( losing some more gain
) and then the network.
Do you know what the dB lose is through the Tango LCR filter at 1K Hz? With
that I can do some figuring.
>Here are some links to pages with Tango LCR implementations:
><http://www.teleport.com/~tube/71aeqsce.jpg>
><http://www2.cds.ne.jp/~yogawa/phonoeq/hontai/eq.htm#eq>
First design uses the mu driver approach. Interesting but not too radical.
Second design I cannot figure out. Are the gain blocks regular old plate
loaded 6DJ8s?
Regards, David
=========================================================================
From: thomas.mayer@philips.com
Subject: RE: [JN] LCR RIAA
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:51:12 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n804
Hi,
> Still, the amount of iron needed to do this approach in a purist way is
> considerable. For a moving coil cartridge, an 1:10 input transformer seems a
> must. Using a cascode seems impossible due to the resulting high plate
> impedance. Follow that with a step down transformer ( losing some more gain
> ) and then the network.
Since the output of the LCR network is low impedance this opens the
posibility to use yet another piece of iron. The 600 Ohm output
impedance can drive a 1:2 or even a 1:4 step up transformer.
> Do you know what the dB lose is through the Tango LCR filter at 1K Hz? With
> that I can do some figuring.
The loss is 20db plus the insertion loss, depending on the output
impedance of the driving stage. That would be 6dB (26dB) total loss
for the worst case of 600 Ohm source impedance.
Regards ... Thomas
=========================================================================
From: Roscoe Primrose <roscoe@aiko.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR RIAA
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:28:35 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n805
David Home wrote:
>
> Hi guys.
> >Here are some links to pages with Tango LCR implementations:
> ><http://www.teleport.com/~tube/71aeqsce.jpg>
> ><http://www2.cds.ne.jp/~yogawa/phonoeq/hontai/eq.htm#eq>
>
> First design uses the mu driver approach. Interesting but not too radical.
> Second design I cannot figure out. Are the gain blocks regular old plate
> loaded 6DJ8s?
> Regards, David
I think if you look at the whole page he goes through a design review
of the gain blocks and then shows the final schematic at the bottom of
the page...
Peace
- --
Roscoe Primrose -- mailto:roscoe@aiko.com --
http://www.aiko.com/roscoe
"Once in a while you get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right." Robert Hunter
"640K ought to be enough for anybody" , Bill Gates, 1981
=========================================================================
From: "Phil Sieg" <psieg@nxs.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR RIAA
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:25:25 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n805
> Since the output of the LCR network is low impedance this opens the
> posibility to use yet another piece of iron. The 600 Ohm output
> impedance can drive a 1:2 or even a 1:4 step up transformer.
I remeber you saying something when posting about your 801A preamp that a
step-up primary of around 200 Ohms might work better than a 600 Ohm IT. If
I am remembering this correctly, does the network output require impedance
matching? I'm planning to use CX-112As (Rp = ~4700) and Sowter has a
10K:600 and a 200:10K (1:7.1) - also a 600:64K (1:10). If I split the
network into its low and nhigh frequency halves, can Iuse either of the
step-ups, with or without impedance match?
BTW, the input step-up is a 1:20.
>
>
> > Do you know what the dB lose is through the Tango LCR filter at 1K Hz?
With
> > that I can do some figuring.
>
> The loss is 20db plus the insertion loss, depending on the output
> impedance of the driving stage. That would be 6dB (26dB) total loss
> for the worst case of 600 Ohm source impedance.
Do you know what the loss is per section when split?
Phil
>
> Regards ... Thomas
>
=========================================================================
From: thomas.mayer@philips.com
Subject: Re: [JN] LCR RIAA
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:15:26 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n806
Hi!
> I remeber you saying something when posting about your 801A preamp that a
> step-up primary of around 200 Ohms might work better than a 600 Ohm IT. If
No, I mentioned that I prefer to drive the LCR network with 200 Ohms
or lower.
> I am remembering this correctly, does the network output require impedance
> matching?
Yes, absolutely. The network needs to be terminated with 600 Ohms,
otherwise it will deviate from the RIAA curve
> I'm planning to use CX-112As (Rp = ~4700) and Sowter has a
> 10K:600 and a 200:10K (1:7.1) - also a 600:64K (1:10).
The 10k:600 would result in around 300 Ohms with the 112A. Should
work ok. You will loose about one third of the voltage due to
insertion loss. Plus the 20dB from the EQ.
I found step up rations of more than 1:4 getting problematic after the
EQ. This depends on the miller capacitance of the tube you want
to drive with it. You might get some roll off with such high
set up ratios.
> If I split the
> network into its low and nhigh frequency halves, can Iuse either of the
> step-ups, with or without impedance match?
I have never tried to split the LCR EQ, I will try this in the future myself.
You will have to terminate each half with 600 Ohms.
Thomas
=========================================================================
From: "Tony Bombera" <tbombera@pathcom.com>
Subject: [JN] RE: Lead Free Solder
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 22:40:00 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n873
Hi Paul,
The best 0.5% Cu-4% Ag-Sn solder quoted to me is from Heareus, 610 825 6050.
I have a spool with no
clean flux and I am trying it. I like that lead free feature. But as far as
flow is concerned, it is worse than
a good lead solder. This solder is tried on a new Hakko 936 (which I do not
like
that much. The temperature
was too low. When I measured the tip and set it correctly, it is too high
and tip oxidized. And I was told by production
people that the quality of tips is not what it used to be. So I must turn
the temperature down when not in use.
The good old Weller magnetic tip iron was within 5 deg C.)
Regards,
Tony Bombera
=========================================================================
From: "eric elghammer" <aryxaudio@lycos.com>
Subject: [JN] Lead-free solder problems
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 18:55:20 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n864
Is anyone using lead-free solder? I'm curious to know if anyone
has experienced any problems with it. I received an article about
whisker growth in tin alloy solder - it seems that tin ( cadmium
and zinc as well ) is prone to growing "whiskers" that can cause
shorts in relays, pcb's, etc. Here's a couple links that Google
turned up:
http://www.anoplate.com/news/tin.htm
http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/PeterZawistowski-ViaSatellite/2000/f-PZ-tin-whiskers.html
Get 250 color business cards for FREE! at Lycos Mail
http://mail.lycos.com/freemail/vistaprint_index.html
=========================================================================
From: "P de R. Leclercq" <triode@freenetname.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [JN] Lead-free solder problems
Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 20:14:14 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n864
Is anyone using lead-free solder? I'm curious to know if anyone
has experienced any problems with it.
It's rubbish. I cannot wait to use up the reel I bought and buy some proper
stuff with decent flux. It melts reluctantly and when set looks horrible -
dull.
I recently found the remains of an old reel of conventional solder; what a
pleasure it is to use!
Regards
Paul Leclercq
- --
=========================================================================
From: Francois Yves Le Gal <flegal@free.fr>
Subject: RE: [JN] Lead-free solder problems
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:00:47 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n865
At 20:14 11/04/01 -0700, P de R. Leclercq wrote:
>It melts reluctantly and when set looks horrible -
>dull.
Then, according to what you describe, *your* iron is rubbish for this
application... At what temperature did you set it?
Pb-free solder has a much higher melting point and requires quality temp
controlled irons or soldering stations.
=========================================================================
From: jc@izone.com
Subject: RE: [JN] Lead-free solder problems
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 11:29:15 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n865
i have tried everything with "lead free" and have come to the inevitable
conclusion that it sucks! in all possible ways. i'll keep the deadly stuff
for now.
jc
=========================================================================
From: "P de R. Leclercq" <triode@freenetname.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [JN] Lead-free solder problems
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 22:11:37 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n866
My soldering iron is a 24V temperature-controlled soldering station.
I set the temperature to 360 degrees centigrade according to the
manufacturer's recommendation.
I feel that no further comment is necessary except that next time |I shall
purchase low-temperature silver-loaded solder.
Paul de Raymond Leclercq
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-sound@lists.io.com [mailto:owner-sound@lists.io.com]On
Behalf Of Francois Yves Le Gal
Sent: 12 April 2001 00:01
To: sound@lists.io.com
Subject: RE: [JN] Lead-free solder problems
At 20:14 11/04/01 -0700, P de R. Leclercq wrote:
>It melts reluctantly and when set looks horrible -
>dull.
Then, according to what you describe, *your* iron is rubbish for this
application... At what temperature did you set it?
Pb-free solder has a much higher melting point and requires quality temp
controlled irons or soldering stations.
=========================================================================
From: "P de R. Leclercq" <triode@freenetname.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [JN] Lead-free solder problems
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 22:13:59 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n866
Dear JC,
I could not agree more - and a highly-qualified and fairly eminent friend
agrees with me.
He recommends low-temperature silver-loaded solder and despite the cost, I
shall follow his advice!
Paul Leclercq
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-sound@lists.io.com [mailto:owner-sound@lists.io.com]On
Behalf Of jc@izone.com
Sent: 12 April 2001 08:29
To: sound@lists.io.com
Subject: RE: [JN] Lead-free solder problems
i have tried everything with "lead free" and have come to the inevitable
conclusion that it sucks! in all possible ways. i'll keep the deadly stuff
for now.
jc
=========================================================================
From: Francois Yves Le Gal <flegal@free.fr>
Subject: RE: [JN] Lead-free solder problems
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 00:38:29 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n866
At 22:11 12/04/01 -0700, P de R. Leclercq wrote:
>I set the temperature to 360 degrees centigrade according to the
>manufacturer's recommendation.
Then either you've got crappy solder or your iron has a dead tip.
We use Pb free solder on a daily basis and have no problems whatsoever.
But we use properly maintained Weller stations...
:-)
=========================================================================
From: "P de R. Leclercq" <triode@freenetname.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [JN] Lead-free solder problems
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 01:59:52 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n866
Well the solder is new and by Multicore; the tip is also brand new. And the
iron works beautifully with traditional solder.
Whatever, I'll save the lead-free solder for bus-bars and the like and avoid
the risk of damaging components with overheating by using 170 degree
silver-loaded solder.
P. de R. L.
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-sound@lists.io.com [mailto:owner-sound@lists.io.com]On
Behalf Of Francois Yves Le Gal
Sent: 12 April 2001 15:38
To: sound@lists.io.com
Subject: RE: [JN] Lead-free solder problems
At 22:11 12/04/01 -0700, P de R. Leclercq wrote:
>I set the temperature to 360 degrees centigrade according to the
>manufacturer's recommendation.
Then either you've got crappy solder or your iron has a dead tip.
We use Pb free solder on a daily basis and have no problems whatsoever.
But we use properly maintained Weller stations...
:-)
=========================================================================
From: Loesch Thorsten <TORSTEN.LOESCH@enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk>
Subject: RE: [JN] Lead-free solder problems
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 15:36:50 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n867
Hi all,
JC wrote:
>i have tried everything with "lead free" and have come to the
inevitable
>conclusion that it sucks! in all possible ways. i'll keep the
deadly stuff
>for now.
Well, I have no problems soldering with the stuff (or getting neat
joints), even using fairly normal Soldering Irons. It does help to have
learned soldering professionally and yes, you need a hot tip (usually the
next size up in the ladder).
Having evaluated a number of solders sonically I'll never again use
leadbearing solder, but that (as so much else) is a matter of personal
taste. BTW, over around 4 or 5 years I have never had any problems with non
leadbearing solder growing beards....
Ciao T
=========================================================================
From: Paul Joppa <pj@bottlehead.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Lead-free solder problems
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:40:02 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n871
Thorsten writes:
> Well, I have no problems soldering with the stuff ...
Thorsten (or anyone else with information on this), are you able
to get the Multicore lead-free Cu-Ag-Sn solder? I have failed in
several attempts, but it looks good in their technical papers on
their web site. Eutectic mix, I think around 3%Ag and 0.7%Cu. I
am hoping it is available at least in England! They have a
health-friendly flux, also. I have seen the solder in bar form
for wave-soldering, but not in flux-core wire like we all want
to use.
TIA for any info!
- -Paul Joppa
=========================================================================
From: Peter Sikking <peter.sikking@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Lead-free solder problems
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 18:18:01 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n872
Paul Joppa wrote:
> Thorsten (or anyone else with information on this), are you able
> to get the Multicore lead-free Cu-Ag-Sn solder?
> They have a health-friendly flux, also.
When I started running out of Audio Note solder I wanted to try lead-free again,
The AN stuff flows and smells wonderful (who actually makes this stuff?),
but I could not stand the fact that it contained lead.
So I got a 250g/1mm roll of ecosol 105 / TCS alloy (the funky alloy and flux Paul
wrote about) at Farnell here in the UK. I mailed the guys at Multicore and they told
me to get it there. Got this alloy after a plug by Thorsten on how it does not
go bad,
according to research.
How does it solder? Not...
I use a Weller WECP-20 station (who doesn't?) with the smallest
slashed cone / general purpose tip i can get. I used the AN solder
at 450 degrees for point-to-point and less for pcb, no problem.
The multicore stuff doesn't want to melt below 400 degrees,
and above 400 degrees the flux forms a great black insulating layer
on the tip whithin a couple of joints.
So using it at 400 degrees it does not want to flow, neither on
the tip nor on the alligator clips I was soldering wires to
the other week. Even after extensive cooking with the tip it wants
to remain a round ball in the hole of the clip, where the AN solder
flowed after a second.
At 400 the flux still blackens and insulates the tip in about 10 joints
after which I have to cook the tip in a pot of clean-n-tin, which I am sure
contains lead and releases unhealthy gasses, thus defeating the purpose of
using the muticore solder.
And the flux smells bad >^}
Maybe the tcs alloy with the AN flux will allow it to be used at 450 degrees
(hmmm, with pcb's..?) and get some better results.
--ps/031
=========================================================================
From: "P de R. Leclercq" <triode@freenetname.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [JN] Lead-free solder problems
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 00:14:23 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n872
I have just purchased a reel of low-melting-point silver-loaded solder
(Sn/Pb/Ag).
With a tip temperature of 300 degrees C. and no overheated components,
soldering is a pleasure once more - and I can bear to look at the (shiny)
results.
Paul Leclercq
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-sound@lists.io.com [mailto:owner-sound@lists.io.com]On
Behalf Of Peter Sikking
Sent: 21 April 2001 10:18
To: Paul Joppa
Cc: sound@lists.io.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Lead-free solder problems
Paul Joppa wrote:
> Thorsten (or anyone else with information on this), are you able
> to get the Multicore lead-free Cu-Ag-Sn solder?
> They have a health-friendly flux, also.
When I started running out of Audio Note solder I wanted to try lead-free
again,
The AN stuff flows and smells wonderful (who actually makes this stuff?),
but I could not stand the fact that it contained lead.
So I got a 250g/1mm roll of ecosol 105 / TCS alloy (the funky alloy and flux
Paul
wrote about) at Farnell here in the UK. I mailed the guys at Multicore and
they told
me to get it there. Got this alloy after a plug by Thorsten on how it does
not
go bad,
according to research.
How does it solder? Not...
I use a Weller WECP-20 station (who doesn't?) with the smallest
slashed cone / general purpose tip i can get. I used the AN solder
at 450 degrees for point-to-point and less for pcb, no problem.
The multicore stuff doesn't want to melt below 400 degrees,
and above 400 degrees the flux forms a great black insulating layer
on the tip whithin a couple of joints.
So using it at 400 degrees it does not want to flow, neither on
the tip nor on the alligator clips I was soldering wires to
the other week. Even after extensive cooking with the tip it wants
to remain a round ball in the hole of the clip, where the AN solder
flowed after a second.
At 400 the flux still blackens and insulates the tip in about 10 joints
after which I have to cook the tip in a pot of clean-n-tin, which I am sure
contains lead and releases unhealthy gasses, thus defeating the purpose of
using the muticore solder.
And the flux smells bad >^}
Maybe the tcs alloy with the AN flux will allow it to be used at 450 degrees
(hmmm, with pcb's..?) and get some better results.
--ps/031
=========================================================================
From: "P de R. Leclercq" <triode@freenetname.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [JN] Lead-free solder problems
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:23:22 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n872
>
I use nothing else - the Multicore 0.71mm offering, and it is just superb.
Use a Hako 926/936, and have never had a problem.
Thanks Hugh!
Now I know I am in good company - I just bought the .71mm offering myself!
Paul
=========================================================================
From: "Hugh R. Dean" <aksa1@optushome.com.au>
Subject: Re: [JN] Lead-free solder problems
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 09:44:28 +1000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n872
Hi Folks,
Paul Leclercq remarked thus:
> I have just purchased a reel of low-melting-point silver-loaded solder
> (Sn/Pb/Ag).
>
> With a tip temperature of 300 degrees C. and no overheated components,
> soldering is a pleasure once more - and I can bear to look at the (shiny)
> results.
I use nothing else - the Multicore 0.71mm offering, and it is just superb.
Use a Hako 926/936, and have never had a problem.
Cheers,
Hugh
Hugh R. Dean
Research/Technical Director
www.printedelectronics.com
Melbourne AUSTRALIA
=========================================================================
From: Loesch Thorsten <TORSTEN.LOESCH@enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk>
Subject: Re: [JN] Lead-free solder problems
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:27:06 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n873
Hi,
>Thorsten (or anyone else with information on this), are you able
>to get the Multicore lead-free Cu-Ag-Sn solder?
AFAIK that is what I use and what Paul doesn't like... ;-)
Ciao T
=========================================================================
From: "P de R. Leclercq" <triode@freenetname.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [JN] Lead-free solder problems
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:54:01 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n873
Hello
whoever wants it can purchase the 80% remaining on my reel for a suitable
sum. I shall be at the meeting on Thursday and could bring it along if you
like
Paul
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-sound@lists.io.com [mailto:owner-sound@lists.io.com]On
Behalf Of Loesch Thorsten
Sent: 23 April 2001 05:27
To: 'sound@lists.io.com'
Subject: Re: [JN] Lead-free solder problems
Hi,
>Thorsten (or anyone else with information on this), are you able
>to get the Multicore lead-free Cu-Ag-Sn solder?
AFAIK that is what I use and what Paul doesn't like... ;-)
Ciao T
=========================================================================
From: "Darl Singh" <darl@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: [JN] Leak 'maillist
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:20:54 +1200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n120
FYI, a new list on the 'HJ Leak' range of equipment has been started:" see
http://www.eGroups.com/list/hjleak for details.
Not to detract anything from this list - but the more resources the better,
right? :-)
- -Darl
=========================================================================
From: "Brian Clark" <bdclark@talk21.com>
Subject: [JN] LED balls & stuff.
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:55:26 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n579
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01BFD618.F4D7B640
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello j & co
when are goin' to give
the Full Monkey a go?
Brian.
- ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01BFD618.F4D7B640
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hello j & co</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>when are goin' to give</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>the Full Monkey a go?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Brian.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
- ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01BFD618.F4D7B640--
=========================================================================
From: "Ellen Oler" <ellenoler@earthlink.net>
Subject: [JN] LED bias
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:33:34 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n577
I have done some more listening with the LED's - I think they are probably
going to stay in, unless I try something else!
- -j
=========================================================================
From: TubeGarden@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] LED driver bias gives Donkey Huge Balls!
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 06:27:26 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n575
Greets Jeets Neets!
I replaced my driver bias networks, a 15 ohm HolCo H8 and 4 asst 1000uF 6.3V
Panasonic and a 0.05uF 1500V with a 2.1V Green LED.
Oh, mighty Low Notes!
Just what the world needs, a Jackass with buns of steel!
i HAD TRIED OPERATING POINTS NEAR THIS ONE, SO i SUSPECT THERE IS SOMETHING
ELSE DOING THE MAGIC.
Thank you!!!
Very Happy Ears!
Al B^}
=========================================================================
From: "Jim Warwick" <gtrmkr@wans.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] LED driver bias gives Donkey Huge Balls!
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:56:25 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n576
Al wrote--
> Greets Jeets Neets!
>
> I replaced my driver bias networks, a 15 ohm HolCo H8 and 4 asst 1000uF
6.3V
> Panasonic and a 0.05uF 1500V with a 2.1V Green LED.
I've been using green LEDs (1.94v) to bias the 5842s in my 6528 amp. Best
arrangement I've tried, and I've tried 'em all...
> i HAD TRIED OPERATING POINTS NEAR THIS ONE, SO i SUSPECT THERE IS
SOMETHING
> ELSE DOING THE MAGIC.
Agreed! I've done the same...
I really hate cathode bypass caps...every time I find a way to eliminate
one, everything gets better...
Regards,
Jim
=========================================================================
From: ToobWiz@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] LEDs as Bias Builders
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 11:08:51 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n959
In a message dated 09/02/2001 11:<BR02:<BR36 AM
Eastern Daylight, sadlerb@mweb.co.za writes:> Don have you tried this
scheme in your RIAA, the use of 1N4148
> that is. I have tried 2 and 3 off 1N4148s in series in my RIAA on the
> 6922s 2nd and 3rd tube and it sounded very good. I need to do a bit more
> messing about to find the optimum. IMO I think that there will be no
> modulation of the bias with signal using 1N4148s and they are rated at
75ma.
>
Bill,
my RIAA uses only one IR LED for bias. Since I don't need additional bias,
I've never tried anything different. The diode is readily available from
Radio Shack.
#276-243 gves a bit over 1 volt bias with 2 mA current. I had to set up the
plate circuit a bit "strong" to make sure the diodes fired upon turn-on. I
had an oscillation prior to reducing the plate resistance.
My RIAA sounds quite balanced, and transparent, but not very fast. I should
have chosen a tube with higher Gm, I expect. Still, it beats the original
Fisher FB EQ stage all hollow.
Cheers/Don
=========================================================================
From: "Bill Sadler" <sadlerb@mweb.co.za>
Subject: re:[JN] LEDs as Bias Builders
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 16:57:44 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n959
Hello Joes
Don Carron said,
> *Your* statement was interesting as well. Is this "expander"
characteristic
> of diodes used as bias-setters? I have infrared LEDs biasing the 6072s in
my
> RIAA stage. Will I have this expander characteristic going on?
I find this very interesting the move to non-resistive bias schemes as in
Don's RIAA stage and Allan's SE Amp. Conrad Johnson use 2 - 1N4148 in series
in the cathode of each of the 10 in parallel 6922s for bias in their ART 1
line stage. Don have you tried this scheme in your RIAA, the use of 1N4148
that is. I have tried 2 and 3 off 1N4148s in series in my RIAA on the
6922s 2nd and 3rd tube and it sounded very good. I need to do a bit more
messing about to find the optimum. IMO I think that there will be no
modulation of the bias with signal using 1N4148s and they are rated at 75ma.
Regards
Bill
=========================================================================
From: ToobWiz@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] LEDs as Bias Builders
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 18:05:54 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n959
In a message dated 09/02/2001 4:<BR41:<BR01 PM
Eastern Daylight , Pderl@btinternet.com writes:
> Anyone know of a (quiet) diode that would provide about 0.2V and pass
> 25mA??
Well, 0.2V is difficult to get. Selenium transistors have a nominal 0.3V.
You might find a power transistor that would handle 25mA across the junction.
Selecting from a bunch might find one below 0.3v... this is a guess, as I
know next to nothing about SS devices :-)
Cheers/Carron
ps, Paul, we've built a hole shrinker to allow your 6EW7 to occupy the 6DN7's
position. It will likely be next Thurs. pm before we can do any stup and
listening. We've decided to use the SV572-3 amp because we both are well
familiar with it.
Don
=========================================================================
From: "Paul De Raymond Leclercq" <Pderl@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] LEDs as Bias Builders
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 21:38:51 -0700
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n959
Anyone know of a (quiet) diode that would provide about 0.2V and pass
25mA??
Paul
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <ToobWiz@aol.com>
To: <sadlerb@mweb.co.za>; <sound@lists.io.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: [JN] LEDs as Bias Builders
> In a message dated 09/02/2001 11:<BR02:<BR36 AM
> Eastern Daylight, sadlerb@mweb.co.za writes:> Don have you tried this
> scheme in your RIAA, the use of 1N4148
> > that is. I have tried 2 and 3 off 1N4148s in series in my RIAA on
the
> > 6922s 2nd and 3rd tube and it sounded very good. I need to do a bit
more
> > messing about to find the optimum. IMO I think that there will be no
> > modulation of the bias with signal using 1N4148s and they are rated at
> 75ma.
> >
>
> Bill,
>
> my RIAA uses only one IR LED for bias. Since I don't need additional bias,
> I've never tried anything different. The diode is readily available from
> Radio Shack.
>
> #276-243 gves a bit over 1 volt bias with 2 mA current. I had to set up
the
> plate circuit a bit "strong" to make sure the diodes fired upon turn-on. I
> had an oscillation prior to reducing the plate resistance.
>
> My RIAA sounds quite balanced, and transparent, but not very fast. I
should
> have chosen a tube with higher Gm, I expect. Still, it beats the original
> Fisher FB EQ stage all hollow.
>
> Cheers/Don
=========================================================================
From: "Chris Vryonides" <chrisvryonides@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] LEDs as Bias Builders
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 08:43:54 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n959
Hi Paul
Sounds like you want a Schottky diode - they have the low drop you're after.
Dunno about the noise level, but I would guess they'd be better than normal
types in this respect?
Cheers
Chris
- ----Original Message Follows----
From: "Paul De Raymond Leclercq" <Pderl@btinternet.com>
To: <ToobWiz@aol.com>, <sadlerb@mweb.co.za>, <sound@lists.io.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] LEDs as Bias Builders
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 21:38:51 -0700
Anyone know of a (quiet) diode that would provide about 0.2V and pass
25mA??
Paul
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <ToobWiz@aol.com>
To: <sadlerb@mweb.co.za>; <sound@lists.io.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: [JN] LEDs as Bias Builders
> In a message dated 09/02/2001 11:<BR02:<BR36 AM
> Eastern Daylight, sadlerb@mweb.co.za writes:> Don have you tried this
> scheme in your RIAA, the use of 1N4148
> > that is. I have tried 2 and 3 off 1N4148s in series in my RIAA on
the
> > 6922s 2nd and 3rd tube and it sounded very good. I need to do a bit
more
> > messing about to find the optimum. IMO I think that there will be no
> > modulation of the bias with signal using 1N4148s and they are rated at
> 75ma.
> >
>
> Bill,
>
> my RIAA uses only one IR LED for bias. Since I don't need additional
bias,
> I've never tried anything different. The diode is readily available from
> Radio Shack.
>
> #276-243 gves a bit over 1 volt bias with 2 mA current. I had to set up
the
> plate circuit a bit "strong" to make sure the diodes fired upon turn-on.
I
> had an oscillation prior to reducing the plate resistance.
>
> My RIAA sounds quite balanced, and transparent, but not very fast. I
should
> have chosen a tube with higher Gm, I expect. Still, it beats the original
> Fisher FB EQ stage all hollow.
>
> Cheers/Don
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
=========================================================================
From: Kurt Steffensen <kurt-steffensen@teliamail.dk>
Subject: [JN] LED's gives HUGE Donkey Balls....!
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 01:16:32 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n576
Hi Happy Al , and other Joe Gent's.
Boy , I am happy that you and Jeremy , gave the LED bias a try. :-)
I am also glad that you liked it.
So , I am not the only one on this list that likes these small direct
heated oxide emitters.
If you have a stage that must presents as much amplification as possible
, replacing a bypassed resistor with a LED
compares to giving the amplifier a good kick in the a.... - Yes Sir!
,says amplifier....I obey orders...
And it does. It really straightens up , and goes high speed and deep
bottom :-)
If the LED Voltage fits the needed bias Voltage , no bypassed resistor
can compete with the sonics of the LED.
( You can hear that in the first 3 seconds of a listening test )
And it is a hell lot cheaper that a good resistor and a good
electrolytic.
I do prefer triodes with pure unbypassed resistors in the cathode in
most of my designs.( Local feedback )
But that is not always possible.
I like the LED because:
It is as simple as it ever gets. ( one single component :-)
It works from DC and way , way up in frequency.( = No phase shift in the
audio range )
Noise is very low.
It is very linear.
It is extremely reliable and dead cheap.
It lasts "forever".
It lights ( like tubes ;-)
I can at one glance see if any of the tubes draws more or less current ,
than
any of the others.
The eye is very sensitive to small differences in lights.
LED comes in 1,6 to about 2,2 Volts.
Most are 1,8 Volts. This is unfortunately the Voltages we have to choose
from.
Ofcourse we can stack them for higher Voltages. I have used more than 10
, in some circuits :-)
( 0,4- 0,8 Volts can be made by good diodes , - but that's another
story )
The difference between the best and the poorest LED's aren't that big.
Here it is impossible to recommend any , as they wears no marks, and
your local
area is supplied from different brands , than mine.
I like the old dark red ones. But the good ones comes in all
colours. Also brand new production.
To those of you that haven't tried it..
Do it , please..
It is SO simple and only takes a few seconds to solder in.
If you do not like it , - fine...At least you have tried it , right ;-)
- - Kurt
=========================================================================
From: Steven <stevensl@mindspring.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] LED's gives HUGE Donkey Balls....!
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:08:50 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n577
My S.E.X's use LED's and i'm convinced. When building them i was not too
sure but after talking with some fellow co-workers (one an EE turned DBA
the other a ex-israli army radio guy big on tubes) they loved the idea.
Doc Bottlehead and crew made a winner with the SEX. I'm gonna try it
elsewhere..
oh well back to my sakuma-san dc darlings, should be finished real soon
now. maybe it needs a monkey wrench too!
On Tue, 13 Jun 2000, Kurt Steffensen wrote:
> Hi Happy Al , and other Joe Gent's.
>
> Boy , I am happy that you and Jeremy , gave the LED bias a try. :-)
> I am also glad that you liked it.
> So , I am not the only one on this list that likes these small direct
> heated oxide emitters.
>
> If you have a stage that must presents as much amplification as possible
> , replacing a bypassed resistor with a LED
> compares to giving the amplifier a good kick in the a.... - Yes Sir!
> ,says amplifier....I obey orders...
> And it does. It really straightens up , and goes high speed and deep
> bottom :-)
> If the LED Voltage fits the needed bias Voltage , no bypassed resistor
> can compete with the sonics of the LED.
> ( You can hear that in the first 3 seconds of a listening test )
> And it is a hell lot cheaper that a good resistor and a good
> electrolytic.
> I do prefer triodes with pure unbypassed resistors in the cathode in
> most of my designs.( Local feedback )
> But that is not always possible.
>
> I like the LED because:
> It is as simple as it ever gets. ( one single component :-)
> It works from DC and way , way up in frequency.( = No phase shift in the
>
> audio range )
> Noise is very low.
> It is very linear.
> It is extremely reliable and dead cheap.
> It lasts "forever".
> It lights ( like tubes ;-)
> I can at one glance see if any of the tubes draws more or less current ,
>
> than
> any of the others.
> The eye is very sensitive to small differences in lights.
>
> LED comes in 1,6 to about 2,2 Volts.
> Most are 1,8 Volts. This is unfortunately the Voltages we have to choose
> from.
> Ofcourse we can stack them for higher Voltages. I have used more than 10
> , in some circuits :-)
> ( 0,4- 0,8 Volts can be made by good diodes , - but that's another
> story )
>
> The difference between the best and the poorest LED's aren't that big.
> Here it is impossible to recommend any , as they wears no marks, and
> your local
> area is supplied from different brands , than mine.
> I like the old dark red ones. But the good ones comes in all
> colours. Also brand new production.
>
> To those of you that haven't tried it..
> Do it , please..
> It is SO simple and only takes a few seconds to solder in.
> If you do not like it , - fine...At least you have tried it , right ;-)
>
> - Kurt
>
=========================================================================
From: TubeGarden@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] LED's gives HUGE Donkey Balls....!
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:49:47 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n577
Greets Jeets Neets!
OK, I combined higher fixed bias and series LEDs and got the SV83 down to 3
mA.
Then I added an LED under the 2A3 for grins.
NOTE TO PILGRIMS: THE LED's SHORT LEG IS THE MINUS LEG :)
At 73 mA on the 2A3 the B+ is 178 volts.
But, the sound is soft and polite. Yuck.
So I lower fixed bias, now 14 mA.
Not so kissy kissy.
OK, I listen for a while.
This is very good experiment.
I use simple diode between Cout and plate choke of sv83... next LED test
point :)
Thanks Joes.
Happy Ears!
Al B^}
=========================================================================
From: Joe Roberts <jroberts@io.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] LED's gives HUGE Donkey Balls....!
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:29:04 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n577
> Just what I need...HUGE Donkey balls...what will Joyce think??
Hope I am blessed with an even number, at least.
Joe
=========================================================================
From: TubeGarden@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] LED's gives HUGE Donkey Balls....!
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:21:53 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n577
In a message dated 6/13/00 3:23:50 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
ezee_e@hotmail.com writes:
> That's way too low. Try 15 - 20mA in triode mode.
Hi T,
Yup, It is Now Playing at 28mA on the SV83 (triode) and 82mA on the 2A3 B+ is
175V.
Sound is superb :)
Thanks!
Happy Ears!
Al B^}
=========================================================================
From: TubeGarden@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] LED's gives HUGE Donkey Balls....!
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:26:12 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n577
In a message dated 6/13/00 3:08:59 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
ezee_e@hotmail.com writes:
> why not use good parts instead of crap ones?
Hi T,
If they sound good, they are good.
Crap is in the ear of the beholder :)
Happy Ears!
Al B^}
=========================================================================
From: Allen Wright <AllenVSE@compuserve.com>
Subject: [JN] LED's gives HUGE Donkey Balls....!
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:34:26 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n577
Kurt sings the praises of LEDs for bias.
Do ya all know that the internal construction/materials of the LED to
obtain different colours give a good range of voltages?
Red seems the lowest but blue can be over 3 volts.
And a minor caution - most LEDs are not rated for more than 20mA - athough
I have never seen one blow unless it gets a *real* current pulse - so don't
blame the LED if it doesn't keep regulating sonically tight at twice it's
current rating, OK?
Allen (VSE)
=========================================================================
From: dslagle@earthlink.net (dave slagle)
Subject: Re: [JN] LED's gives HUGE Donkey Balls....!
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:10:19 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n577
hey happy,
when i asked what was upstream, i was referring to the signal path, not the
electron path...
what is hooked up to the other side of the grid of the el-84 (on the other
side of the interconnects...)
dave
=========================================================================
From: dslagle@earthlink.net (dave slagle)
Subject: Re: [JN] LED's gives HUGE Donkey Balls....!
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:10:20 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n577
>And a minor caution - most LEDs are not rated for more than 20mA -
how about using them in parallel?
=========================================================================
From: "T. Loesch" <ezee_e@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] LED's gives HUGE Donkey Balls....!
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:04:19 GMT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n577
Hi there,
>If the LED Voltage fits the needed bias Voltage , no bypassed resistor
>can compete with the sonics of the LED.
>( You can hear that in the first 3 seconds of a listening test )
You sure can. But while the Bass improves, to my ears the sound becomes
strident, overly tight and agressive. Why? Because LED's are a good deal
less linear as anything else and hence you just put a nice Distortion
generator into your circuit....
>And it is a hell lot cheaper that a good resistor and a good
>electrolytic.
Who uses these anyway?
>I like the LED because:
>It is as simple as it ever gets. ( one single component :-)
Okay.
>It works from DC and way , way up in frequency.( = No phase shift in the
>audio range )
Okay.
>Noise is very low.
Not so. LED's are quite noisy, green ones are less noisy than others though.
Nevertheless a good classic Voltage Reference is much quieter, if you must
bring the SS into this.
>It is very linear.
Not so, look at the I/V curves. There are some LED's that indeed offer a
very linear I/V curve, most don't.
>It is extremely reliable and dead cheap.
>It lasts "forever".
>It lights ( like tubes ;-)
Okay.
But what is wrong with a precisition progarammable bandgap refernece if you
MUST use Solid State? These come with bias Voltages starting at 1.25V. If
you have to use solid state, why not use good parts instead of crap ones?
Later T
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
From: John Levreault <jlevro@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] LED's gives HUGE Donkey Balls....!
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:14:23 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n577
Kurt Steffensen wrote:
>
> If you have a stage that must presents as much amplification as possible
> , replacing a bypassed resistor with a LED
> compares to giving the amplifier a good kick in the a.... - Yes Sir!
> ,says amplifier....I obey orders...
> And it does. It really straightens up , and goes high speed and deep
> bottom :-)
There's more to music than bass. I couldn't get over the dynamic
compression that an LED imparted. The sense of strain increases and the
ease is gone. But YMMV, obviously.
> I like the LED because:
> It is as simple as it ever gets. ( one single component :-)
True. I really wanted it to work.
> It works from DC and way , way up in frequency.( = No phase shift in the
> audio range )
> Noise is very low.
Low, but not VERY low.
> It is very linear.
Sorry, but they're very NON-linear, just like any other semiconductor
junction.
I recall posting some measurements to this list, a long, long time ago,
of some tests I did with different color LEDs. IIRC, the greenies had
the lowest dynamic impedance, around 6 ohms?, but the waveform
distortion was quite severe when the LED had a sinewave impressed on its
current source. I was trying to simulate what happened at the cathode
when the signal current varied. Maybe a choke load in the plate would
help?
JL
=========================================================================
From: "T. Loesch" <ezee_e@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] LED's gives HUGE Donkey Balls....!
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:21:14 GMT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n577
Hi AL,
>OK, I combined higher fixed bias and series LEDs and got the SV83 down to
>3mA.
That's way to low. Try 15 - 20mA in triode mode.
Ciao T
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
From: "PEARL Cust Serv" <custserv@pearl-hifi.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] LED's gives HUGE Donkey Balls....!
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 11:20:26 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n577
TubeGarden@aol.com profoundly observed
> Hi T,
>
> If they sound good, they are good.
>
> Crap is in the ear of the beholder :)
>
> Happy Ears!
> Al B^}
Now *there's* the truth if ever it has been spoken. Can I just send you
a nickel ever time I use that line ?
Bill - PEARL, Inc.
=========================================================================
From: Douglas Purl <dcp@selway.umt.edu>
Subject: Re: [JN] LED's gives HUGE Donkey Balls....!
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 11:55:21 -0600 (MDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n577
In England the fruit of the tree tilia glabra is called monkey nuts.
You need to know this.
Trivially yours, Doug Purl
=========================================================================
From: connlyra@gol.com
Subject: [JN] Re: LED's gives HUGE Donkey Balls....!
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:09:59 +0900
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n577
Kurt,
I also use LED's, and I agree that they are the right approach to use
on many occasions. However, while I concur that they have low
conducted noise, they do _radiate_ noise, and the direction of
radiation is at right angles to the LED body, like a lighthouse.
You may want to try wrapping a bit of conductive foil around the LED,
or putting a small-diameter metal tube over the LED. I would usually
ground this shield, but you may wish to experiment with grounded and
non-grounded.
I find that this makes for a bit more relaxed sound, but I reckon
that your mileage may vary. Apologies if this destroys the lighting
effect. :-)
jonathan
ps. Nice to see diodes put to good use by the normally
semiconductor-phobic Joes. In general, components are only tools,
neither good nor bad unto themselves. Whether the sonic result is
acceptable or not is mainly up to the talents and perseverence of the
designer / builder.
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: [JN] LED's gives HUGE Donkey Balls....!
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 20:37:38 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n577
hi all,
Another disadvantage: LEDs work 2-way so keep them away from any glow :-)
They are in the circuit, same gain from cathode to anode as from the grid.
Guido
At 08:34 13/06/2000 -0400, Allen Wright wrote:
>Kurt sings the praises of LEDs for bias.
>
>Do ya all know that the internal construction/materials of the LED to
>obtain different colours give a good range of voltages?
>
>Red seems the lowest but blue can be over 3 volts.
>
>And a minor caution - most LEDs are not rated for more than 20mA - athough
>I have never seen one blow unless it gets a *real* current pulse - so don't
>blame the LED if it doesn't keep regulating sonically tight at twice it's
>current rating, OK?
>
>Allen (VSE)
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Kurt Steffensen <kurt-steffensen@teliamail.dk>
Subject: Re: [JN] LED's gives HUGE Donkey Balls....!
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:54:06 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n578
The LED is just a component/tool like any other , Thorsten.
And like these , it is not best in all circuits. No component are.
The more circuits ones tries , the more obvius does this become.
It is waste of time , to condem LED's , Tubes , Fets , triodes , screwdrivers ,
calculators , chokes , SE , DHT etc.
Just as it is to choose one component or circuit and claiming that this is the
best of all.
ANY component has any degree between good and a bad. It is all up to our own
skills, fantasy and the circuit in which it is going to be used.
We would not do much progress , if we did not work out from that basis , would
we ?
- - Sincerely Kurt
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: [JN] LED's gives HUGE Donkey Balls....!
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 20:37:36 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n578
Hi there,
I have to jump in and agree with Thorsten: The linearity of impedance and
noise of most LEDs is not exciting ....
You might ad little resistance in series with the LED, in order to improve
the linearity (as I do sometimes with caps as well).
I guess I have to give it a try
Guido
At 10:04 13/06/2000 GMT, T. Loesch wrote:
>Hi there,
>
>>If the LED Voltage fits the needed bias Voltage , no bypassed resistor
>>can compete with the sonics of the LED.
>>( You can hear that in the first 3 seconds of a listening test )
>
>You sure can. But while the Bass improves, to my ears the sound becomes
>strident, overly tight and agressive. Why? Because LED's are a good deal
>less linear as anything else and hence you just put a nice Distortion
>generator into your circuit....
>
>>And it is a hell lot cheaper that a good resistor and a good
>>electrolytic.
>
>Who uses these anyway?
>
>>I like the LED because:
>>It is as simple as it ever gets. ( one single component :-)
>
>Okay.
>
>>It works from DC and way , way up in frequency.( = No phase shift in the
>>audio range )
>
>Okay.
>
>>Noise is very low.
>
>Not so. LED's are quite noisy, green ones are less noisy than others though.
>Nevertheless a good classic Voltage Reference is much quieter, if you must
>bring the SS into this.
>
>>It is very linear.
>
>Not so, look at the I/V curves. There are some LED's that indeed offer a
>very linear I/V curve, most don't.
>
>>It is extremely reliable and dead cheap.
>>It lasts "forever".
>>It lights ( like tubes ;-)
>
>Okay.
>
>But what is wrong with a precisition progarammable bandgap refernece if you
>MUST use Solid State? These come with bias Voltages starting at 1.25V. If
>you have to use solid state, why not use good parts instead of crap ones?
>
>Later T
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: [JN] LED's gives HUGE Donkey Balls....!
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 20:37:39 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n578
Voltage sources do not like to be paralalled due to their low impedance.
One will always "win"
Guido
At 09:10 13/06/2000 -0400, dave slagle wrote:
>
>>And a minor caution - most LEDs are not rated for more than 20mA -
>
>how about using them in parallel?
>
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: SBench@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] LED's gives HUGE Donkey Balls....!
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:55:42 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n578
Hi Kurt and all,
Just a quick note. The non-linearity of the LED (it IS a PN junction)
can either be used beneficially if it happens to directly offset the
non-linearity of the directly connected device, or detrimentally if
it exagerates the non-linearity of the directly connected device.
Thus, you will hear sonic benefits in some cases and a stridency
in other cases.
If the experimental goal is to provide a low dynamic impedance,
then perhaps you can best judge the effects of LED as bias by
comparing it against a 1.5V battery with perhaps 10 - 20 ohms
in series with the battery. Effective bias point is likely to be
close for these two conditions, particularly with a red LED. For
yellow or green LEDs, a 2V lead-acid battery with a small resistor
is probably closer for comparison purposes.
I've found here that it is possible to find operating points and tubes
that are benefited by LED (or diode for that matter) bias, and
others that sound worse.
For a really interesting test, try a LED as the top cathode "resistor"
in SRPP. Or LED + resistor ;-)
Best Regards,
Steve
=========================================================================
From: Kurt Steffensen <kurt-steffensen@teliamail.dk>
Subject: Re: [JN] LED's gives HUGE Donkey Balls....!
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:31:34 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n578
Hi John and other Joes.
John Levreault wrote:
There's more to music than bass.
Oh , yes. ofcourse :-)
The whole bandwidth is important , right..?
I couldn't get over the dynamic
> compression that an LED imparted. The sense of strain increases and the
> ease is gone. But YMMV, obviously.
Some LED's do not sound good to me either.
But neither does all caps..etc.
It will finally depend upon the circuit , as well
I have mainly used LED's in CC stages with low gm tubes , for high
amplification.
But certainly they will work good in other kinds of circuits , but not all..
> > I like the LED because:
> > It is as simple as it ever gets. ( one single component :-)
>
> True. I really wanted it to work.
>
> > It works from DC and way , way up in frequency.( = No phase shift in the
> > audio range )
> > Noise is very low.
>
> Low, but not VERY low.
Well , it depends upon what we mean by that. In the circuits I used them , I
could not measure no phase shift due to these.
Even the best capacitor won't manage that. I am not happy with capacitors , if
I can avoid them.
> > It is very linear.
>
> Sorry, but they're very NON-linear, just like any other semiconductor
> junction.
I wonder just how you mean ?
Regarding regulation delta current/ Volt change ?
They can be very , very good indeed here. Use one that covers the area that
the triode is supposed to swing , very well.
No problem in CC stages.
Or do you mean frequency ?
The good ones does acts better than a resistor/capacitor.
And the Z remains very stable from DC to way up..
Even squares are still squares at more than 100 kHz.
This was in fact the way I selected the LED's I used.
> I recall posting some measurements to this list, a long, long time ago,
> of some tests I did with different color LEDs. IIRC, the greenies had
> the lowest dynamic impedance, around 6 ohms?
I do not see the dynamic imp. as any problem at all. Consider it like a little
local feedback.
As long as it does not change much in the frequency range , I see no harm.
I prefer 100% local feedback circuits. ( I don't use FB loops much )
Sometimes I have even mixed the LED with a resistor in series , in order to
hit the best bias , and achieve a little local feedback.
For a long time , I had some favourite colours.( Red and Green )
At a certain time in the early 1990's , I could for a period of more than a
year , not find a reliable source for "good" LED's.
I was sure that the good "audio LED's" were discontinued :-(
I did not use them much after this period.
( The dark red 1970/80's LED's are EXCELLENT. You can solder a few out of old
equipment and try :- )
But recently ( 2-3 years ago ) I bought good ones in all colours , without
problems , of much need for selected ones.
I haven't tried the low I , AIGaS ones. Certainly worth a try.
Also the new high current LED's , should be worth a test.( 80mA )
Most LED's takes about 30mA as MAX. ( The spread being 20-60mA as max )
That's really plenty for most small signal stages.
> , but the waveform
> distortion was quite severe when the LED had a sinewave impressed on its
> current source.
Well , I just test the LED's with a triode. Higher amplification always leds (
;-) to more distortion , compared to a pure resistor cathode..
> I was trying to simulate what happened at the cathode
> when the signal current varied. Maybe a choke load in the plate would
> help?
Yes , a constant current source/choke load is best with the LED's . in my
opinion.
Well , enough of LED's.in this post of mine. I think we can conclude that some
likes them , others don't.
( Or maybe it is some LED's in some circuits ... :-)
- - What a lousy summer June ,we have in the Middle and Northern Europe this
year , huh ?
Are you going to come to Arhus in August , John ?
- - Kurt
=========================================================================
From: Kurt Steffensen <kurt-steffensen@teliamail.dk>
Subject: Re: [JN] LED's gives HUGE Donkey Balls....!
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:52:58 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n578
Allen Wright wrote:
> Kurt sings the praises of LEDs for bias.
Tune apropos BP post's recently "Mister Sandman".
Mr. sandman....
Give us some LEDs . doo-doo -doo -doo
We really like them sol'dred to tubes-
Why or how , I do have no clue
So mister Sandman , give us some LEDs..
Again ? ;-) :-O
No ?
Allrigh. See you. :-)
- - Kurt
=========================================================================
From: John Levreault <jlevro@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] LED's gives HUGE Donkey Balls....!
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:38:49 -0400
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n579
Kurt Steffensen wrote:
>
>
> > Sorry, but they're very NON-linear, just like any other semiconductor
> > junction.
>
> I wonder just how you mean ?
> Regarding regulation delta current/ Volt change ?
> They can be very , very good indeed here. Use one that covers the area that
> the triode is supposed to swing , very well.
I understand your point. As the LED current varies from, say, 2 to 20ma,
the voltage stays very close to, say, 1.7V. However, it's that "very
close" where the disagreement lies. An LED is still a semiconductor
device and its threshold will vary as the current changes. What I recall
observing was as follows:
I connected a signal generator to an LED through a resistor. I used a
generator that had a variable DC offset on the output voltage. I
adjusted the voltage for something like 10 or 20ma, I don't recall
exactly. I then turned up the level of the sinewave, which had the
effect of varying the current through the LED. I then looked at the
sinewave voltage on the LED.
There will, of course, be some small amount of sinewave, depending on
the dynamic Z of the LED and the value of the series resistor. Knowing
the series resistor and the input sinewave level, I was able to
calculate the dynamic Z of the LED, which I recall was typically
6-10ohms, with green lower than red. What I didn't like, though, was the
very large distortion, >10% IIRC, of the sinewave at the LED itself. I
have learned to never underestimate the ear's ability to hear this kind
of stuff!
> No problem in CC stages.
I think you're right. I think the same holds for a choke load, which is
analogous to a CCS, at least from the midbass on up. By keeping the
current through the LED as constant as possible, we may solve that
non-linearity problem. I'm not a fan of CCS's, though. To my ears, the
transistor is plainly audible and distincly non-musical, but chokes (and
IT's) are OK. I'm going to give this a look.
> Well , enough of LED's.in this post of mine. I think we can conclude that some
> likes them , others don't.
> ( Or maybe it is some LED's in some circuits ... :-)
You speak the truth!
> - What a lousy summer June ,we have in the Middle and Northern Europe this
> year , huh ?
Can't be much worse than Boston. It's been very cool and rainy with only
a few hot summer days. I have to mow my lawn twice a week!
> Are you going to come to Arhus in August , John ?
That is still up in the air at the moment, but thanks for asking.
JL
>
> - Kurt
=========================================================================
From: TubeGarden@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Re: LED's - lighthouse from hell
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:38:26 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n577
In a message dated 6/13/00 1:18:47 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
connlyra@gol.com writes:
> I also use LED's, and I agree that they are the right approach to use
> on many occasions. However, while I concur that they have low
> conducted noise, they do _radiate_ noise, and the direction of
> radiation is at right angles to the LED body, like a lighthouse.
>
> You may want to try wrapping a bit of conductive foil around the LED,
> or putting a small-diameter metal tube over the LED. I would usually
> ground this shield, but you may wish to experiment with grounded and
> non-grounded.
Hi Jonathan!
Thanks for the tip.
I am off to install copper foil tape on my 'future flashlights''!
Happy Ears!
Al B^}
=========================================================================
From: MHenry7868@aol.com
Subject: [JN] Legion was magnet systems now cobalt
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:48:50 EDT
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n518
vastly out of subject, but i must respond :
<< If I recall correctly the French sent the Foreign Legion down there to
evacuate the Europeans. Handy to have a force of non-citizens to send into
trouble so the electorate doesn't cry about "our boys", no? Someday The
United States will have to hire Ghurkas or Pathans to project our power.
Perhaps some of our European Joes have a remembrance of this affair. >>
in France, the foreign legion "La Légion étrangère" is VERY well considered.
it is certainly not a "non-citizen disposable force".
and in France the electorate doesn't cry for same reason. we usualy think
that it is a normal thing to do war with soldiers.
in USA, white house prefer to bomb and kill 20 000 innocents ( remember Irak
for instance) to preserve some soldiers lifes. quite strange and ugly way to
do war.
i prefer foreign Legion way, sorry.
but there is a lot of bad things in French history too, of course (algerie,
indochine, madagascar...)
- ------------ Marco --------------Saint Hélen, Côtes d'Armor, France.
=========================================================================
From: Steven <stevensl@mindspring.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Legion was magnet systems now cobalt
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:57:18 -0400 (EDT)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n518
Hmm this whole thread smells of flame bait.. lets please not feed the
trolls..
ps: my army can beat your army ;-)
On Wed, 12 Apr 2000 MHenry7868@aol.com wrote:
>
> << If I recall correctly the French sent the Foreign Legion down there to
> evacuate the Europeans. Handy to have a force of non-citizens to send into
> trouble so the electorate doesn't cry about "our boys", no? Someday The
> United States will have to hire Ghurkas or Pathans to project our power.
> Perhaps some of our European Joes have a remembrance of this affair. >>
>
> in France, the foreign legion "La Légion étrangère" is VERY well considered.
> it is certainly not a "non-citizen disposable force".
> and in France the electorate doesn't cry for same reason. we usualy think
> that it is a normal thing to do war with soldiers.
> in USA, white house prefer to bomb and kill 20 000 innocents ( remember Irak
> for instance) to preserve some soldiers lifes. quite strange and ugly way to
> do war.
> i prefer foreign Legion way, sorry.
>
> but there is a lot of bad things in French history too, of course (algerie,
> indochine, madagascar...)
>
> ------------ Marco --------------Saint Hélen, Côtes d'Armor, France.
>
=========================================================================
From: "Trond Megaard" <trondmeg@online.no>
Subject: [JN] Lehmann Black Cube
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 14:53:17 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n332
Hi Joenetters
Does anybody have the necessary details about the upgrade on Lehmann Black Cube that was mentioned i
n Stereophile some time ago? I am thinking about buying a used one I know about.
Trond Megaard
=========================================================================
From: Ellen Oler <ellenoler@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always!
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 21:28:03 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n841
> Is it the case that a single-
> ended amp, since its tube has an output that is also "lopsided",
> sounds right in one direction, but wrong in the other?
Danielak says so. He got the idea from someone else, forget who (Joseph
Esmilla?) He always wires his OPTs up sdrawkcab.
- -j
=========================================================================
From: John Levreault <jlevro@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always!
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 09:42:03 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n841
Ellen Oler wrote:
>
> > Is it the case that a single-
> > ended amp, since its tube has an output that is also "lopsided",
> > sounds right in one direction, but wrong in the other?
>
> Danielak says so. He got the idea from someone else, forget who (Joseph
> Esmilla?) He always wires his OPTs up sdrawkcab.
As slagle pointed out, this recommendation came from Johannes Chiu in a
post to JoeNet back in 1995 or thereabouts. You might check the
archives. Johannes was right.
JL
>
> -j
=========================================================================
From: "Dave Slagle" <dslagle@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always!
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 19:54:14 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n842
> this recommendation came from Johannes Chiu in a
> post to JoeNet back in 1995 or thereabouts. You might check the
> archives. Johannes was right.
i think this is where danielak got it from too... johannes wasn't in my
studio more than a minute before he said i was out of phase... he mentioned
real speciffic pointers in the bass that made it obvious...
if anyone digs up his post please repost it... i would love to read it
again... johannes are you lurking???
phil popped in with....
a question about tube saturation and this concept... as i recall (wasn't i
said earlier in the thread?) that the idea that air isn't linear and tubes
aren't linear both giving rise to 2nd order distortion, one phasing of he
two is additive, and the other opposite...
the interesting thing is johannes could nail his preferred phase on my
lowthers at low levels.(rear firing bass horn and all... what does that say
about LF phase?) plus the bass comes off the back of the driver and we are
talking about nowhere near "traditional" clipping...
the idea that i get listenable sound with my system particularly in the bass
given all the rules i am apparently breaking according to those that know
better, leads me to the rule that the only person i listen to is myself and
when i find something i like, i go in search of why and try to share my
experiences... so hopefull i can find others with similar experiences.
johannes concept has really helped me with a few things...
lets go back to what happens in a lowther in the bass... the LF info below
say 3-400hz comes off the back of the driver so it is already 180 degrees
out of phase with the rest, next it travels through about 10 feet of folded
horn bouncing to and fro, and fires to the rear... where it immediately hits
a wall and bounces back into the room ... this to me is akin to tossing your
bass driver around 15 feet behind your driver and out of phase to boot....
sure you can argue as the designers do the length of the horn is critical to
the "proper" re-reversal of phase, but still at best it makes it to you in
proper phase (whatever the hell that is for a 20 foot long wave in a 10 foot
room) but you are still time delayed by a good amount... yet the net result
is still listenable??? how is that possible... i could have lard in my
ears... or i could have different priorities... but it often amazes me how
someone can comment and critique on something they have never heard.
in any event the bulk of what i got from johannes was that it was indeed a
power and distortion issue, he mentioned he heard it in the (mid)bass which
is where most of the amps power goes... as i recall it was interesting that
danielak liked a different tube speaker phase at my place with the rear
firning basshorns than he preferred at home where the LF was more
traditional.
oh well i hope i didn't bastardize his idea too much... but correct or not
thats how i interpret it... i am open for corrections in my oversimplified
ways.
dave
=========================================================================
From: Douglas Purl <dcp@selway.umt.edu>
Subject: RE: [JN] Less is more???? Not always!
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 09:33:42 -0700 (MST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n843
On Mon, 26 Mar 2001, Danielak, Robert M wrote:
> assumptions:
> a speaker is more efficient at compressing air (cone moving out)
> vs. rarefying it (cone pulled in).
I am curious about the premises that led to this conclusion. Is it a
matter of the acoustic interface of the membrane, magnetic asymmetry of
the motor, or some other? Does the rule apply to direct radiators?
Doug Purl
=========================================================================
From: Thomas Danley <Tom@ppci.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always!
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 10:12:38 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n843
"Danielak, Robert M" wrote:
Hi
snip>
Just a quick comment
>
> a speaker is more efficient at compressing air (cone moving out)
> vs. rarefying it (cone pulled in).
>
This is not the case at least from the standpoint of acoustics and actual
operation of the driver, yes there is some small non linearity associated with
vacuum vs pressure but it is only an issue when the SPL is high (as in a hf
compression driver, at the diaphragm).
A horn loaded cone will generally never be able to produce enough pressure to
exhibit this effect and one should recall that the speaker motor it self is
generally a much greater source (order(s) of magnitude greater) of non
linearity.
This is even more true of a direct radiator. Often a pair of drivers are used
side by side, one facing in and the other facing out (but acoustically in phase)
which also reduces the distortion, but again that is distortion produced by the
driver motor, not the air.
>
> this speaker characteristic is essentially another source of 2nd
> harmonic distortion.
>
> now johannes position is that one should use the (enhanced by D2)
> positive signal to push the speaker out.
> this compounds the enhanced signal with the higher efficiency
> resulting in noticeably stronger bass.
>
> i recall offering up the suggestion that maybe it would be better
> to employ the opposite connection. this way, the two characteristics
> work in opposite directions. maybe compensating for each other,
> if you are smart/lucky/etc.
>
> apparently i am neither, in this matter, because i always seem to prefer the
> connection that johannes suggests....
>
> it is interesting to note that the "standard" connection that most
> transformer suppliers suggest, is opposite to this (i could be wrong,
> though).
>
> for discussion's sake, let's assume that the primary "start" lead
> is connected to B+, and the "finish" is connected to the plate
> of the output tube.
>
> i believe that most manufacturers use the secondary "start" as
> speaker +, and "finish" for speaker -.
>
> in this way, the OPT inverts the plate signal.
>
> hence, the signal applied to the speaker has the emphasized negative
> peak, instead of emphasized positive...
>
> an other important memorie of the "slagle sessions on phase sensitivity,
> by dr. johannes chiu"
>
Also perhaps worth pointing out that unless one is very careful (as in the Unity
horn speakers), a typical speaker system's acoustic phase may traverse hundreds
or even thousands of degrees from low to high so referring to absolute phase in
a system which by definition can't preserve a complex waveshape and has its
output spread out in time may be a bit of a reach. I.E.: absolute phase cannot
really be judged unless the speaker preserves the acoustic phase of the input
signal in the first place and most do not by any stretch of the imagination,
most in fact spread the energy out a great deal in time due to the excess phase
shift.
Sure a system may well sound different even better with one polarity vs the
other but don't confuse that with hearing absolute phase.
Cheers,
Tom Danley
=========================================================================
From: "Danielak, Robert M" <robert.m.danielak@lmco.com>
Subject: RE: [JN] Less is more???? Not always!
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 10:36:18 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n843
hi guys,
holy crap.
was it really 6 years ago?!?
and yes, johannes was responsible for my appreciation for phase...
in any case, it always takes me a little while to re-calibrate myself
on this discussion, but here's my summary of that night's discussion:
assumptions:
the output stage is the major source of 2nd harmonic distortion.
2nd harmonic causes the positive peaks of a sine wave to be emphasized
and the negative peaks flattened (measured at the plate of the power
tube).
a speaker is more efficient at compressing air (cone moving out)
vs. rarefying it (cone pulled in).
this speaker characteristic is essentially another source of 2nd
harmonic distortion.
now johannes position is that one should use the (enhanced by D2)
positive signal to push the speaker out.
this compounds the enhanced signal with the higher efficiency
resulting in noticeably stronger bass.
i recall offering up the suggestion that maybe it would be better
to employ the opposite connection. this way, the two characteristics
work in opposite directions. maybe compensating for each other,
if you are smart/lucky/etc.
apparently i am neither, in this matter, because i always seem to prefer the
connection that johannes suggests....
it is interesting to note that the "standard" connection that most
transformer suppliers suggest, is opposite to this (i could be wrong,
though).
for discussion's sake, let's assume that the primary "start" lead
is connected to B+, and the "finish" is connected to the plate
of the output tube.
i believe that most manufacturers use the secondary "start" as
speaker +, and "finish" for speaker -.
in this way, the OPT inverts the plate signal.
hence, the signal applied to the speaker has the emphasized negative
peak, instead of emphasized positive...
an other important memorie of the "slagle sessions on phase sensitivity,
by dr. johannes chiu"
swapping phase upstream (i.e., in or before the preamp) had little
effect (at least compared to the obvious effect in the output stage).
i have long forgotten the details of this discussion, but i have
taken the lesson to heart.
very often, i do not even use different color binding posts
on my amps.
let the user find out for himself which sounds better... ;)
bob.d.
> ----------
> From: Dave Slagle[SMTP:dslagle@earthlink.net]
> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2001 7:54 PM
> To: Joenet
> Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always!
>
>
> > this recommendation came from Johannes Chiu in a
> > post to JoeNet back in 1995 or thereabouts. You might check the
> > archives. Johannes was right.
>
> i think this is where danielak got it from too... johannes wasn't in my
> studio more than a minute before he said i was out of phase... he
> mentioned
> real speciffic pointers in the bass that made it obvious...
>
> if anyone digs up his post please repost it... i would love to read it
> again... johannes are you lurking???
>
> phil popped in with....
>
> a question about tube saturation and this concept... as i recall (wasn't i
> said earlier in the thread?) that the idea that air isn't linear and
> tubes
> aren't linear both giving rise to 2nd order distortion, one phasing of he
> two is additive, and the other opposite...
>
> the interesting thing is johannes could nail his preferred phase on my
> lowthers at low levels.(rear firing bass horn and all... what does that
> say
> about LF phase?) plus the bass comes off the back of the driver and we
> are
> talking about nowhere near "traditional" clipping...
>
> the idea that i get listenable sound with my system particularly in the
> bass
> given all the rules i am apparently breaking according to those that know
> better, leads me to the rule that the only person i listen to is myself
> and
> when i find something i like, i go in search of why and try to share my
> experiences... so hopefull i can find others with similar experiences.
>
> johannes concept has really helped me with a few things...
>
> lets go back to what happens in a lowther in the bass... the LF info below
> say 3-400hz comes off the back of the driver so it is already 180 degrees
> out of phase with the rest, next it travels through about 10 feet of
> folded
> horn bouncing to and fro, and fires to the rear... where it immediately
> hits
> a wall and bounces back into the room ... this to me is akin to tossing
> your
> bass driver around 15 feet behind your driver and out of phase to boot....
> sure you can argue as the designers do the length of the horn is critical
> to
> the "proper" re-reversal of phase, but still at best it makes it to you in
> proper phase (whatever the hell that is for a 20 foot long wave in a 10
> foot
> room) but you are still time delayed by a good amount... yet the net
> result
> is still listenable??? how is that possible... i could have lard in my
> ears... or i could have different priorities... but it often amazes me how
> someone can comment and critique on something they have never heard.
>
> in any event the bulk of what i got from johannes was that it was indeed a
> power and distortion issue, he mentioned he heard it in the (mid)bass
> which
> is where most of the amps power goes... as i recall it was interesting
> that
> danielak liked a different tube speaker phase at my place with the rear
> firning basshorns than he preferred at home where the LF was more
> traditional.
>
> oh well i hope i didn't bastardize his idea too much... but correct or not
> thats how i interpret it... i am open for corrections in my oversimplified
> ways.
>
> dave
>
=========================================================================
From: Martin Seddon <mseddon@iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always!
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 22:49:55 +0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n843
"Dave Slagle" wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
Johannes was right.
i think this is where danielak got it from too... johannes wasn't in my
studio more than a minute before he said i was out of phase... he mentioned
real speciffic pointers in the bass that made it obvious...
the interesting thing is johannes could nail his preferred phase on my
lowthers at low levels.(rear firing bass horn and all... what does that say
about LF phase?)
in any event the bulk of what i got from johannes was that it was indeed a
power and distortion issue, he mentioned he heard it in the (mid)bass which
is where most of the amps power goes...
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<,
This stuff is for real. I finally got Lowther PM2A / front horns rigged up
with biamped bass. Expansion by Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h made in fibreglass
- - 1m mouth. I am on a real high - I feel right in sinc with list for once.
Amazing clarity and percussion. But something ... just not right.
Image not gelling. no depth. Could not get bass right. 8" paper cones on
pp amp with 6 step variable roll off. I tried reversing one speaker - no
good. Mick Maloney came round and we focused the array and reversed the
bass speaker polarity - better. Still amazing.
But tonight reading the above and what went before (best joenet gets) I got
up and reversed both the Lowthers - (could easily hear the bass was out of
phase then) - reversed the bass speakers too - and then it slowly dawned on me
Slagel was right Johannes was right
depth and warmth - pure @#$!ing deep magic - break on through!
It is something in the mid bass that shows up wrong - but when it gets
right its all right!!
I love this - I caught myself wondering what I needed 8 watt 300Bs for(like
I got Krells) for driving 100 plus dB sensitive speakers - now I know -
power loading here is miniwatt
Anyway warm thanks to Jean-Michel for his inspired spherical wave front
program (check archives DEC 1999 for discussion of). When I can I will
post pin ups - LH sky blue / RH pure white - voluptuous.
Martin
=========================================================================
From: "Thomas Sylvester" <TRS@carlsmith.com>
Subject: RE: [JN] Less is more???? Not always!
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 09:26:53 -1000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n844
Hi Doug-
Nelson Pass has an excellent article on this exact subject on his website:
http://www.passlabs.com/articles/seclassa.htm
Here is a sample of what he has to say:
"We can push on air and raise the pressure an arbitrary amount, but we cannot pull on it. We can onl
y let it relax and fill a space as it will, and the pressure will never go below "0". As we push on
air, the increase in pressure is greater than the corresponding decrease when we allow air to expand
. This means that for a given motion of a diaphragm acting on air, the positive pressure perturbatio
ns will be slightly greater than the negative. From this we see that air is phase sensitive."
>>> Douglas Purl <dcp@selway.umt.edu> 03/26/01 06:33AM >>>
> assumptions:
> a speaker is more efficient at compressing air (cone moving out)
> vs. rarefying it (cone pulled in).
I am curious about the premises that led to this conclusion. Is it a
matter of the acoustic interface of the membrane, magnetic asymmetry of
the motor, or some other? Does the rule apply to direct radiators?
Doug Purl
=========================================================================
From: "Thomas Sylvester" <TRS@carlsmith.com>
Subject: RE: [JN] Less is more???? Not always!
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 10:45:39 -1000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n844
Hi Doug-
You're right, of course. Pass says:
"The small nonlinearity which is the result of air's characteristic is not generally judged to be si
gnificant at normal sound levels, and is comparable to the distortion numbers of fine amplifiers. Th
is distortion generally only becomes a concern in the throats of horns, where the intense pressure l
evels are many times those at the mouth, and where the harmonic component can reach several per cent
."
Setting horns aside, I bet most on this list would not automatically accept that in direct radiators
these low levels of distortion are necessarily inaudible. Anyone have any ideas about how to tes
t for the audibility of this form of distortion?
Regards, Tom Sylvester
>>> Douglas Purl <dcp@selway.umt.edu> 03/26/01 10:29AM >>>
On Mon, 26 Mar 2001, Thomas Sylvester wrote: <snip!>
One has to be careful applying this concept, for there are significant
contextual issues. The power of a vacuum should not be underestimated.
The statement that "we cannot pull on [air]" means less than it seems.
> matter of the acoustic interface of the membrane, magnetic asymmetry of
> the motor, or some other? Does the rule apply to direct radiators?
> <snip!>
> Doug Purl
=========================================================================
From: Dan Marshall <mdaniel7@uswest.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always!
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 11:40:06 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n844
"Danielak, Robert M" wrote:
>
> it is interesting to note that the "standard" connection that most
> transformer suppliers suggest, is opposite to this (i could be wrong,
> though).
>
>dave
Dunno about most transformers, but I did note, a while back, that the
large Hammond SE output is wired in accordance with Johannes'
recommendation, i.e., output goes positive when output tube grid goes
positive.
Dan Marshall
=========================================================================
From: Douglas Purl <dcp@selway.umt.edu>
Subject: RE: [JN] Less is more???? Not always!
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 13:29:28 -0700 (MST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n844
On Mon, 26 Mar 2001, Thomas Sylvester wrote:
> Hi Doug-
> Nelson Pass has an excellent article on this exact subject on his website:
> http://www.passlabs.com/articles/seclassa.htm
>
> Here is a sample of what he has to say: "We can push on air and raise
> the pressure an arbitrary amount, but we cannot pull on it. We can
> only let it relax and fill a space as it will, and the pressure will
> never go below "0". As we push on air, the increase in pressure is
> greater than the corresponding decrease when we allow air to expand.
> This means that for a given motion of a diaphragm acting on air, the
> positive pressure perturbations will be slightly greater than the
> negative. From this we see that air is phase sensitive."
One has to be careful applying this concept, for there are significant
contextual issues. The power of a vacuum should not be underestimated.
The statement that "we cannot pull on [air]" means less than it seems.
We can, indeed, squeeze molecules so that gas temperature rises to
frightening values. And it is true that unsqueezing them stops at zero, a
perfect vacuum. But consider that nature, the most powerful of forces,
permits air to be blown but short distances. Conversely, it allows air to
be sucked hundreds of miles. Blown air quickly breaks up into vortices
and a pandemonium of distributed vectors. Its force is quickly spent.
Low-pressure zones, by contrast, draw air by way of convergent vectors
into a coherent force. Placing finite boundaries upon such a pump (DC in
the case Pass is positing) permits us to exploit the positive-pressure
advantage he describes. But a loudspeaker system operating in a bounded
space will not reach finite-pump conditions unless or until longer waves
reach all boundaries within a portion of a cycle and multiply by pi-space
factors. Under real AC conditions the difference between positive and
negative gas molecule perturbations will be swamped utterly by the
flux-field asymmetry of magnet-plus-keeper configurations. There the
flux is stronger on intake, i.e., on inspiration, than on output, or
expiration, overwhelming any piddling pressure/vacuum differential.
I'd like to see some quantified results of real-world experiments
concerning this theoretical asymmetry of compression and rarefaction. I
suspect that we are speculating on the clustering of angels on the head of
a pin. I might also note that loudspeakers don't pump air, even Tom's
cyclone, except as a secondary phenomenon. They impart energy to gas
molecules, who quickly pass the buck to their neighbors. We aren't moving
gas from point A to B and beyond. We are getting a bunch of hula dancers
to wiggle their behinds in rythmic undulations. Keep 'em bumping, not
grinding.
Doug Purl
> >>> Douglas Purl <dcp@selway.umt.edu> 03/26/01 06:33AM >>>
>
> > assumptions:
>
> > a speaker is more efficient at compressing air (cone moving out)
> > vs. rarefying it (cone pulled in).
>
> I am curious about the premises that led to this conclusion. Is it a
> matter of the acoustic interface of the membrane, magnetic asymmetry of
> the motor, or some other? Does the rule apply to direct radiators?
>
> Doug Purl
=========================================================================
From: "Danielak, Robert M" <robert.m.danielak@lmco.com>
Subject: RE: [JN] Less is more???? Not always!
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 14:59:27 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n844
this is part of the re-calibration i was talking about.
very easy to get the logic backwards.
we had a sample consensus that the OPT's we had on hand
all inverted polarity in their conventional hook-up.
i remember that in my amp that evening, the convention seemed backward
from johannes's theory.
we didn't have a scope handy, but i thought that i later confirmed
that the OPT did invert phase, so re-inverting made it conform
to the theory...
or maybe it was vice-versa...
(see what i mean, i'm all mixed up).
what i do know is that i keep my speaker leads inverted right
at the speakers.
then nearly 100% of the amps i hook up conventionally sound better
that way...
other theories are most welcome.
as we are finding out, maybe some of our assumptions are flawed.
wish tom danley was around for the 1st time around... ;)
the recent work by kurt in his power distortion paper make me wonder
if this effect has more to do with the way the amp deals instantaneously
with the back-emf from the speakers....
> ----------
> From: Dan Marshall[SMTP:mdaniel7@uswest.net]
> Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 6:40 AM
> To: Danielak, Robert M
> Cc: Joenet; 'Dave Slagle'
> Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always!
>
> "Danielak, Robert M" wrote:
> >
> > it is interesting to note that the "standard" connection that most
> > transformer suppliers suggest, is opposite to this (i could be wrong,
> > though).
> >
> >dave
>
> Dunno about most transformers, but I did note, a while back, that the
> large Hammond SE output is wired in accordance with Johannes'
> recommendation, i.e., output goes positive when output tube grid goes
> positive.
>
> Dan Marshall
>
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: RE: [JN] Less is more???? Not always!
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 23:47:34 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n844
- --=====================_18131663==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Thomnas
Thanks for the link below
So given its' non linear behaviour, it gives even harmonic distortion.....
Guido
At 09:26 26-3-01 -1000, Thomas Sylvester wrote:
>Hi Doug-
>Nelson Pass has an excellent article on this exact subject on his website:
>http://www.passlabs.com/articles/seclassa.htm
>
>Here is a sample of what he has to say:
>"We can push on air and raise the pressure an arbitrary amount, but we
>cannot pull on it. We can only let it relax and fill a space as it will, and
>the pressure will never go below "0". As we push on air, the increase in
>pressure is greater than the corresponding decrease when we allow air to
>expand. This means that for a given motion of a diaphragm acting on air, the
>positive pressure perturbations will be slightly greater than the negative.
>From this we see that air is phase sensitive."
>
>
>
>>>> Douglas Purl <dcp@selway.umt.edu> 03/26/01 06:33AM >>>
>
>> assumptions:
>
>> a speaker is more efficient at compressing air (cone moving out)
>> vs. rarefying it (cone pulled in).
>
>I am curious about the premises that led to this conclusion. Is it a
>matter of the acoustic interface of the membrane, magnetic asymmetry of
>the motor, or some other? Does the rule apply to direct radiators?
>
>Doug Purl
>
- --=====================_18131663==_
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- --=====================_18131663==_--
=========================================================================
From: "Danielak, Robert M" <robert.m.danielak@lmco.com>
Subject: RE: [JN] Less is more???? Not always!
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 15:01:57 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n845
yes.
that was the gist of our discussions.
that's what i meant about the efficiency.
is this true, tom danley?
bob.d.
> ----------
> From: Thomas Sylvester[SMTP:TRS@carlsmith.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 2:26 PM
> To: sound@deliverator.io.com; dcp@selway.umt.edu
> Subject: RE: [JN] Less is more???? Not always!
>
> Hi Doug-
> Nelson Pass has an excellent article on this exact subject on his website:
> http://www.passlabs.com/articles/seclassa.htm
>
> Here is a sample of what he has to say:
> "We can push on air and raise the pressure an arbitrary amount, but we
> cannot pull on it. We can only let it relax and fill a space as it will,
> and the pressure will never go below "0". As we push on air, the increase
> in pressure is greater than the corresponding decrease when we allow air
> to expand. This means that for a given motion of a diaphragm acting on
> air, the positive pressure perturbations will be slightly greater than the
> negative. From this we see that air is phase sensitive."
>
>
>
> >>> Douglas Purl <dcp@selway.umt.edu> 03/26/01 06:33AM >>>
>
> > assumptions:
>
> > a speaker is more efficient at compressing air (cone moving out)
> > vs. rarefying it (cone pulled in).
>
> I am curious about the premises that led to this conclusion. Is it a
> matter of the acoustic interface of the membrane, magnetic asymmetry of
> the motor, or some other? Does the rule apply to direct radiators?
>
> Doug Purl
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Phil <tube@jump.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always!
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 18:55:32 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n845
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: RE: [JN] Less is more???? Not always!
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 21:47:19 +0200
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n845
Robert
At 10:36 26-3-01 -0500, Danielak, Robert M wrote:
>assumptions:
>
>the output stage is the major source of 2nd harmonic distortion.
>
>2nd harmonic causes the positive peaks of a sine wave to be emphasized
>and the negative peaks flattened (measured at the plate of the power
>tube).
Fundamentallly that could also be the other way around
>a speaker is more efficient at compressing air (cone moving out)
>vs. rarefying it (cone pulled in).
>
>this speaker characteristic is essentially another source of 2nd
>harmonic distortion.
Yes, most are (except electrostatics, the are driven by symmetry......)
>now johannes position is that one should use the (enhanced by D2)
>positive signal to push the speaker out.
>this compounds the enhanced signal with the higher efficiency
>resulting in noticeably stronger bass.
>i recall offering up the suggestion that maybe it would be better
>to employ the opposite connection. this way, the two characteristics
>work in opposite directions. maybe compensating for each other,
>if you are smart/lucky/etc.
And how would that turn out for the higher harmonics, especially the odd's ?
>apparently i am neither, in this matter, because i always seem to prefer the
>connection that johannes suggests....
But "just" reversing speaker leads (+ and -) not only changes the
distortion pattern, but also the absolute phase. So 2 aspects change at the
same moment
>it is interesting to note that the "standard" connection that most
>transformer suppliers suggest, is opposite to this (i could be wrong,
>though).
>for discussion's sake, let's assume that the primary "start" lead
>is connected to B+, and the "finish" is connected to the plate
>of the output tube.
>
>i believe that most manufacturers use the secondary "start" as
>speaker +, and "finish" for speaker -.
>
>in this way, the OPT inverts the plate signal.
Probably, never looked at that, this way. Will have a look at available
trannies
>hence, the signal applied to the speaker has the emphasized negative
>peak, instead of emphasized positive...
Voltage-wise that is true (though incorrect according the above described
>an other important memorie of the "slagle sessions on phase sensitivity,
>by dr. johannes chiu"
>
>swapping phase upstream (i.e., in or before the preamp) had little
>effect (at least compared to the obvious effect in the output stage).
So that phase change is different from the discussed change
>i have long forgotten the details of this discussion, but i have
>taken the lesson to heart.
>
>very often, i do not even use different color binding posts
>on my amps.
>
>let the user find out for himself which sounds better... ;)
But the 'best" could be any combination among more than 2 stages...........
regards
Guido
>bob.d.
>
>> ----------
>> From: Dave Slagle[SMTP:dslagle@earthlink.net]
>> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2001 7:54 PM
>> To: Joenet
>> Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always!
>>
>>
>> > this recommendation came from Johannes Chiu in a
>> > post to JoeNet back in 1995 or thereabouts. You might check the
>> > archives. Johannes was right.
>>
>> i think this is where danielak got it from too... johannes wasn't in my
>> studio more than a minute before he said i was out of phase... he
>> mentioned
>> real speciffic pointers in the bass that made it obvious...
>>
>> if anyone digs up his post please repost it... i would love to read it
>> again... johannes are you lurking???
>>
>> phil popped in with....
>>
>> a question about tube saturation and this concept... as i recall (wasn't i
>> said earlier in the thread?) that the idea that air isn't linear and
>> tubes
>> aren't linear both giving rise to 2nd order distortion, one phasing of he
>> two is additive, and the other opposite...
>>
>> the interesting thing is johannes could nail his preferred phase on my
>> lowthers at low levels.(rear firing bass horn and all... what does that
>> say
>> about LF phase?) plus the bass comes off the back of the driver and we
>> are
>> talking about nowhere near "traditional" clipping...
>>
>> the idea that i get listenable sound with my system particularly in the
>> bass
>> given all the rules i am apparently breaking according to those that know
>> better, leads me to the rule that the only person i listen to is myself
>> and
>> when i find something i like, i go in search of why and try to share my
>> experiences... so hopefull i can find others with similar experiences.
>>
>> johannes concept has really helped me with a few things...
>>
>> lets go back to what happens in a lowther in the bass... the LF info below
>> say 3-400hz comes off the back of the driver so it is already 180 degrees
>> out of phase with the rest, next it travels through about 10 feet of
>> folded
>> horn bouncing to and fro, and fires to the rear... where it immediately
>> hits
>> a wall and bounces back into the room ... this to me is akin to tossing
>> your
>> bass driver around 15 feet behind your driver and out of phase to boot....
>> sure you can argue as the designers do the length of the horn is critical
>> to
>> the "proper" re-reversal of phase, but still at best it makes it to you in
>> proper phase (whatever the hell that is for a 20 foot long wave in a 10
>> foot
>> room) but you are still time delayed by a good amount... yet the net
>> result
>> is still listenable??? how is that possible... i could have lard in my
>> ears... or i could have different priorities... but it often amazes me how
>> someone can comment and critique on something they have never heard.
>>
>> in any event the bulk of what i got from johannes was that it was indeed a
>> power and distortion issue, he mentioned he heard it in the (mid)bass
>> which
>> is where most of the amps power goes... as i recall it was interesting
>> that
>> danielak liked a different tube speaker phase at my place with the rear
>> firning basshorns than he preferred at home where the LF was more
>> traditional.
>>
>> oh well i hope i didn't bastardize his idea too much... but correct or not
>> thats how i interpret it... i am open for corrections in my oversimplified
>> ways.
>>
>> dave
>>
=========================================================================
From: ToobWiz@aol.com
Subject: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 05:48:15 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n838
Joes,
I went to a friends house last night to listen to a new phono preamp and I
got an unexpected suprise and a lesson. I thought it might add to the
discourse among the Joes.
Some background; this fellow has been building drivers and speaker systems
commercially for nearly 30 years. Some of you would easily recognize past
products of his. He has been building amps for over ten years, both tubed and
SS. I have come to recognize the characteristic sound he puts in his speaker
systems, and I know the sound of his equipment well, except for the new phono
stage. It was vinly to tube preamp to DH SET with high quality self-made
interconnects and cables.
When I listen to something new at this friend's house, I always take a while
to respond, first, as he has better hearing and sound judgement than I and I
don't want to make a fool of my self with a rash statement :-) and second, he
is very careful to get distortion as low as possible while maintaning good
sound , and second, he is nearly fanatical for flat speaker resoponse.
Therefore, I can trust that anything I hear at his house has been thoroughly
tested. Now, this doesn't mean I always like what I hear, as I (apparently)
prefer a response that isn't frequency flat :-) Further, he knows my "sound"
well enough that he can jump up and change a few crossover components, etc.
and get me pretty close in a second....End of background.
Last night, we listened to a couple of familiar cuts as background music
while we scoped out my newly modified 12AY7 phono stage. Then we sat and
listened. He had made some crossover adjustments to his current speakers
since last time...these are 2-ways with an 8" and a horn in vented
enclosures...and this change was not what I was listening to (or for).
Finally, I said, "James (as if that were his name :-), your system has lost
all it's 'life'. It isn't a FR anomaly, but rather it just sounds dead, like
we're listening through a plastic wall."
He smiled at me and said something like "You know, something is happening
here that I find hard to believe. Because this phono stage has more gain than
my old one, I have reconfigured my amps to defeat the first stage of
amplification. They measure just as well as before, but they have died. I
wanted to see if it was as apparent to you."
His amps use a 6DN7 into SV811-3s at around 12 W @5%. Worth mentioning maybe,
one has SS rectification right now and the other tubes as a temporary
experiment, so the SS one has 3+ extra watts due to the voltage increase(!!!)
but sonically I cannot hear the difference between them on moderate program
material. And, as you'll know, the 6DN7 is a dissimilar triode with u of
about 18 and 8. He had defeated the section with u of 18. BTW, the driving
stage is supplied from the B+ with no decoupling...sometimes considered
crucial to the success of a two-stage SET amp :-)
Well, he quickly reorganized his amps to the original configuration and we
listened. Instant success. Well, at that point we had a long discussion about
two and three stage topologies. This experiment was an absolute eye-opener;
to the point that I'm re-thinking the design of my in-progress 2-stage 8532
and type 46 amps. I am now planning to breadboard them with a third pair of
sockets for a type 27 driver in case it turns out "dead".
I can say *for sure* that in this case, with this particular amplifier (and
all that implies) less is *not* more. I also know that I'll try both 2 stage
and 3 for my amps.
Anyone have any comments?
Cheers/Don Carron
=========================================================================
From: "STEVE CORNETT" <SCORNETT@usagroup.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:04:55 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n838
Don posted:
"...He smiled at me and said something like "You know, something is happening
here that I find hard to believe. Because this phono stage has more gain than
my old one, I have reconfigured my amps to defeat the first stage of
amplification. They measure just as well as before, but they have died..."
I wonder how much of the change was the extra stage and how much was adding the extra gain back in?
If he could get the same gain in two stages it might sound even better.
Steve C.
=========================================================================
From: ToobWiz@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:11:55 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n838
In a message dated 03/22/2001 8:<BR08:<BR36 AM
Eastern Standard , SCORNETT@usagroup.com writes:
> I wonder how much of the change was the extra stage and how much was adding
> the extra gain back in? If he could get the same gain in two stages it
might
> sound even better.
Anything can happen. Remember, he reduced the gain exactly the amount that
was additional due to the new phono stage. In other words, the system (amp
with the defeated stage and with the new phono amp) had the same overall gain
that the original amp plus the old phono amp had.
I don't think this is just a matter of adding up gain. Here we have two
configurations with the same gain, one dead the other live.
Cheers/Carron
=========================================================================
From: "Andy Evans" <arts.psychology@cwcom.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 12:45:31 -0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n838
The two or three stage amp debate has another angle, which is where you put
the first of the three stages. At present I have a passive preamp into a
three stage amp (modded Leak Stereo 20). My next amp will probably be using
6b4gs in PP, so I have the option of three stages in the amp and a passive
preamp, or two stages in the amp and introducing a third stage in the preamp
to make it active. This third stage could also be run from the amp's power
supply as Quad and Leak used to, so it's arguably an extension of the amp in
another location with a cable in between. Then, where to put the volume
control - choices choices.
I realise that the original post was about adding another stage and
getting better sound, but if you widen the argument to topology then the
stage could be added in more than one place, where it co-incides with the
arguments for and against passive preamps. Again with active preamps, less
is not necessarily more, and introducing an active stage has frequently
brough extra 'life' to the sound in subjective terms..
Andy Evans: andy@artsandmedia.com
Visit our website: http://www.artsandmedia.com
=========================================================================
From: John Levreault <jlevro@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:24:00 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n839
ToobWiz@aol.com wrote:
>
> I can say *for sure* that in this case, with this particular amplifier (and
> all that implies) less is *not* more. I also know that I'll try both 2 stage
> and 3 for my amps.
>
> Anyone have any comments?
Did you readjust the system polarity before/after removing/reinserting
that extra gain stage in the amp?
JL
>
> Cheers/Don Carron
=========================================================================
From: "Larry D. Moore" <ldmoore@wcoil.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:38:49 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n839
This is common. It has nothing to do with gain. The difference that you
experience is call transconductance. Typically, low mu tubes, such as the
second half of the 6DN7, don't have much transconductance. The first
section of the 6DN7, however, does. Thus, when you add it in it fixes the
problem.
Remember, transconductance is a measure of how much plate current changes
for a given voltage change on the grid. In other words, how violently a
tube reacts to its input signal. Now, having said that, the level of
signal presented to the amp is rather small; therefore, an amp must have
some ability to react to a small signal. Without this ability, it sounds
just as you suggest. Slower, maybe dryer, life less, just as you describe.
You add transconductance and you breath life into the thing.
Welcome to the next level as jc would say,
L.D. Moore
At 08:11 AM 3/22/01 EST, ToobWiz@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 03/22/2001 8:<BR08:<BR36 AM
> Eastern Standard , SCORNETT@usagroup.com writes:
>> I wonder how much of the change was the extra stage and how much was
adding
>> the extra gain back in? If he could get the same gain in two stages it
>might
>> sound even better.
>
>Anything can happen. Remember, he reduced the gain exactly the amount that
>was additional due to the new phono stage. In other words, the system (amp
>with the defeated stage and with the new phono amp) had the same overall
gain
>that the original amp plus the old phono amp had.
>
>I don't think this is just a matter of adding up gain. Here we have two
>configurations with the same gain, one dead the other live.
>
>Cheers/Carron
>
>
=========================================================================
From: ToobWiz@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 09:17:21 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n839
In a message dated 03/22/2001 8:<BR46:<BR06 AM
Eastern Standard , ldmoore@wcoil.com writes:> You add transconductance and
you breath life into the thing.
>
> Welcome to the next level as jc would say,
But, Larry,
why didn't the output tube of the phono preamp add that transconductance that
was missing due to the first gain stage of the power amp being defeated?
That tube is a 6DJ8, not lacking in transconductance :-) The amp doesn't know
which chassis contains its transconductance!!!
The "dead" system had more transconductance total than the original system
with the old phono amp. Yet the old system was lively and dynamic.
Cheeres/Don
=========================================================================
From: "Larry D. Moore" <ldmoore@wcoil.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 09:26:51 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n839
Yep, think about what the 6DJ8 is driving. That hugh network is in the way.
At 09:17 AM 3/22/01 EST, ToobWiz@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 03/22/2001 8:<BR46:<BR06 AM
> Eastern Standard , ldmoore@wcoil.com writes:> You add transconductance and
>you breath life into the thing.
>>
>> Welcome to the next level as jc would say,
>
>
>But, Larry,
>
>why didn't the output tube of the phono preamp add that transconductance
that
>was missing due to the first gain stage of the power amp being defeated?
>That tube is a 6DJ8, not lacking in transconductance :-) The amp doesn't
know
>which chassis contains its transconductance!!!
>
>The "dead" system had more transconductance total than the original system
>with the old phono amp. Yet the old system was lively and dynamic.
>
>Cheeres/Don
>
>
=========================================================================
From: ToobWiz@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 09:39:40 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n839
In a message dated 03/22/2001 9:<BR32:<BR20 AM
Eastern Standard , ldmoore@wcoil.com writes:
> Yep, think about what the 6DJ8 is driving. That huge network is in the way.
Larry, I didn't understand this post. The 6DJ8 drives the input cap to the
6DN7 (second triode) grid. The networks (split passive RIAA) are downstream
of the DJ.
Cheers/Don
=========================================================================
From: Eric Kingsbury <ekingsbu@hawaii.edu>
Subject: RE: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 11:11:19 -1000 (HST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n839
If there's a diff-amp anywhere in the chain, one can swap inputs to that,
as well.
Poinz
On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, Loesch Thorsten wrote:
> Hi,
>
> >If one does not have balanced inputs to his power amp, then without
> adding
> >another stage, how would he arrange for polarity reversal?
>
> Depends upon what is at hand. One may use the Transformercoupled
> Output of the Preamp (if one has such), or a Sowter Transformer Volume
> control or the Driverstages Interstage Transformer. Or one can switch around
> the Phono cartridges connections, with the dual caveat of (again) changed
> distortion behaviour as LP has a decent amount of 2nd harmonics and the fact
> that it tends not to work with most Moving Magnet/Moving Iron Cartridges as
> they incorporate a shield tied to one cartridge groundpin. Most DAC's do
> Polarity Inversion Digitally, so no trouble there.
=========================================================================
From: ToobWiz@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 13:47:34 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n839
In a message dated 03/22/2001 12:<BR47:<BR52 PM
Eastern Standard, TORSTEN.LOESCH@enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk writes:> Further,
due to the interactions between SE output Stage and
> Speaker Driver (cancellation of even harmonics) there is a "correct"
> absolute polarity between Output stage and speaker, so just reversing the
> Speakerleads will NOT correct the inverted polarity from the defeat of one
> stage.
Thorsten,
If one does not have balanced inputs to his power amp, then without adding
another stage, how would he arrange for polarity reversal?
Cheers/Carron
=========================================================================
From: "Larry D. Moore" <ldmoore@wcoil.com>
Subject: RE: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 15:44:24 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n839
A few points:
1.) So, the 6dj8 has a transconductance of 12,500 umhos according to the
tube manual. This is at 90 volts and 15 mA. My experience is that at this
much current in a phono application, it gets noisy. Now, how much
transconductance does it have at where you're running it? There's a Glass
Audio issue that tells this. It was on the fact that alot of 6dj8 are not
6dj8s. I'm not suggesting that yours are not. Just trying to get the data.
2.) Someone, I forget who, somewhat suggested that tranconductance is an
additive thing, saying something like total transconductance....I feel the
transconductance by definition is a multiplicative thing and should be
compared thusly.
3.) Loading. Read SP, Issue 16, pg 34. Naturally, loading and drive
requirement are related to transconductance as well.
I stand by my original statement.
L.D. Moore
t 05:10 PM 3/22/01 +0100, David Home wrote:
>You think driving part of the RIAA costs in dynamics/life? Hmmm....
>I recently went from a three stage split RIAA design using 6JD8s to a two
>stage split RIAA design using a cascode FET/417A and a CCS loaded 6688
>triode. Following some of Allen Wright's direction to see where it leads.
>The 6688 drives the 3.18/75us network as well as the volume pot.
>I gained in transparency and detail, but lost in dynamics/jump factor. Am
>very interested where this discussion is going...
>Regards, David
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Larry D. Moore [mailto:ldmoore@wcoil.com]
>Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 3:27 PM
>To: ToobWiz@aol.com; sound@lists.io.com
>Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
>
>
>Yep, think about what the 6DJ8 is driving. That hugh network is in the way.
>
>At 09:17 AM 3/22/01 EST, ToobWiz@aol.com wrote:
>>In a message dated 03/22/2001 8:<BR46:<BR06 AM
>> Eastern Standard , ldmoore@wcoil.com writes:> You add transconductance
>and
>>you breath life into the thing.
>>>
>>> Welcome to the next level as jc would say,
>>
>>
>>But, Larry,
>>
>>why didn't the output tube of the phono preamp add that transconductance
>that
>>was missing due to the first gain stage of the power amp being defeated?
>>That tube is a 6DJ8, not lacking in transconductance :-) The amp doesn't
>know
>>which chassis contains its transconductance!!!
>>
>>The "dead" system had more transconductance total than the original system
>>with the old phono amp. Yet the old system was lively and dynamic.
>>
>>Cheeres/Don
>>
>>
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Eric Kingsbury <ekingsbu@hawaii.edu>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:12:42 -1000 (HST)
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n839
I hesitated to comment on this; partially because there are so many people
here who are more technically adroit than I am, and because there were
interesting ideas already being looked at - polarity, for one. There's an
issue here though, that hasn't been brought up, and that I've been dealing
with myself; since I've been on a Mission From Gawd for the last few years
to simplify my system.
Swing. Compared to max, that is.
If I'm going to use one less stage of amplification to get the same amount
of net gain, I'm going to be swinging each device farther:
The output of the first device,
And both input and output of every intermediate device.
Approximately, that is. Now, we all know that the farther we swing a
stage, the more distortion we get; and we know the nature of this
distortion: the progressive blunting of the output peak on the side of the
input signal that takes the device toward cutoff. This will be the
positive-going peak of the output of a plate-loaded (common-cathode or
common-grid) stage. Some sharp guys around here have also shown the
ineffectiveness of trying to use two stages in cascade like this for
'distortion compensation'. The characteristic curve is neither a straight
line (perfect linearity), or radial-type curve (compensatable). It's
pretty straight till the device gets down near cutoff, and then rolls
over. What appears to a THD meter to be reduced distortion is, in fact, a
signal that's being amplified in the middle (around zero crossing), and
blunted on both the positive-going and negative-going peaks. This is
odd-order distortion; probably mostly third- and fifth-order. I've seen
odd-order distortion described in psychoacoustic terms as a
"blanketing," or "darkening," or "flattening" influence to the
sound. Rather similar to the descriptors we might use for reversed
polarity: that's what made me think of it. A good example that we've all
heard is the sound of a real good P-P output stage when it's nearing the
limit. All the life goes away; the sound turns from music into this
machine making noise.
Is this what you're hearing? It may be the sound of trying to get too
much of the available possible gain out of each device, maybe.
Poinz
=========================================================================
From: Ken Gilbert <ride5000@ride.ri.net>
Subject: RE: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:59:49 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n839
>I stand by my original statement.
well, if this is the case, we should all be running our tubes hot, for maximum
gm--not to mention the fact that they should all be high gm tubes to begin
with--if we want those "explosive dynamics."
while i agree that the "one less stage" experiment wasn't highly controlled, i
don't think gm is the only answer. is there ever only one answer?
kg
=========================================================================
From: David Home <David_Home@creoscitex.com>
Subject: RE: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 17:10:23 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n839
You think driving part of the RIAA costs in dynamics/life? Hmmm....
I recently went from a three stage split RIAA design using 6JD8s to a two
stage split RIAA design using a cascode FET/417A and a CCS loaded 6688
triode. Following some of Allen Wright's direction to see where it leads.
The 6688 drives the 3.18/75us network as well as the volume pot.
I gained in transparency and detail, but lost in dynamics/jump factor. Am
very interested where this discussion is going...
Regards, David
- -----Original Message-----
From: Larry D. Moore [mailto:ldmoore@wcoil.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 3:27 PM
To: ToobWiz@aol.com; sound@lists.io.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Yep, think about what the 6DJ8 is driving. That hugh network is in the way.
At 09:17 AM 3/22/01 EST, ToobWiz@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 03/22/2001 8:<BR46:<BR06 AM
> Eastern Standard , ldmoore@wcoil.com writes:> You add transconductance
and
>you breath life into the thing.
>>
>> Welcome to the next level as jc would say,
>
>
>But, Larry,
>
>why didn't the output tube of the phono preamp add that transconductance
that
>was missing due to the first gain stage of the power amp being defeated?
>That tube is a 6DJ8, not lacking in transconductance :-) The amp doesn't
know
>which chassis contains its transconductance!!!
>
>The "dead" system had more transconductance total than the original system
>with the old phono amp. Yet the old system was lively and dynamic.
>
>Cheeres/Don
>
>
=========================================================================
From: Martinburm@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 17:34:04 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n839
<< Polarity matters. >>
Thorsten,
welcome to the club...
one stage more and there is more pickup of acoustic feedback, which gives
more life to the music too (even on the price of precision)
Hans-Martin
=========================================================================
From: Loesch Thorsten <TORSTEN.LOESCH@enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk>
Subject: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 17:45:26 -0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n839
Hi all,
> I have reconfigured my amps to defeat the first stage of
>amplification. They measure just as well as before, but they
>have died.
Now I'm sure someone will call me a spoilsport, but removing one
inverting stage will reverse polarity. Wrong absolut polarity can have a
strong impact. Further, due to the interactions between SE output Stage and
Speaker Driver (cancellation of even harmonics) there is a "correct"
absolute polarity between Output stage and speaker, so just reversing the
Speakerleads will NOT correct the inverted polarity from the defeat of one
stage.
I have only been able to really test all this throughly since
fitting a polarity switch to my Behringer digital EQ, but I find now that
absolute polarity effects tone, dynamics and soundstaging quite
substantially, certainly more than enough to count for "loosing the
magic"....
Now I doubted both Allan Wright and Clark Johnson on the subject of
absolute polarity (based on my experience in Pro Audio where I found
polarity to matter only relative between mic's picking up the same session),
but I eat Texas midsummer 3 Day Roadkill Crow here....
Polarity matters.
Later T
=========================================================================
From: John Levreault <jlevro@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 18:32:20 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n839
Ken Gilbert wrote:
>
> >I stand by my original statement.
>
> well, if this is the case, we should all be running our tubes hot, for maximum
> gm--not to mention the fact that they should all be high gm tubes to begin
> with--if we want those "explosive dynamics."
One person's "explosive dynamics" is another's "aggressive behavior".
There's more to the system than the phono preamp.
> while i agree that the "one less stage" experiment wasn't highly controlled, i
> don't think gm is the only answer. is there ever only one answer?
One question may have a multitude of answers; a multitude of questions
may have but one answer.
JL
>
> kg
=========================================================================
From: Loesch Thorsten <TORSTEN.LOESCH@enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk>
Subject: RE: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 18:54:52 -0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n839
Hi,
>If one does not have balanced inputs to his power amp, then without
adding
>another stage, how would he arrange for polarity reversal?
Depends upon what is at hand. One may use the Transformercoupled
Output of the Preamp (if one has such), or a Sowter Transformer Volume
control or the Driverstages Interstage Transformer. Or one can switch around
the Phono cartridges connections, with the dual caveat of (again) changed
distortion behaviour as LP has a decent amount of 2nd harmonics and the fact
that it tends not to work with most Moving Magnet/Moving Iron Cartridges as
they incorporate a shield tied to one cartridge groundpin. Most DAC's do
Polarity Inversion Digitally, so no trouble there....
Later T
=========================================================================
From: jc@izone.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 21:24:23 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n840
hey,
i will jump in here only to add a few points... i'm not going to get into
defending it one way or the other. it is my opinion, for the record so
there can be no doubt as to where i stand, and it is still only an opinion,
that there has never been nor ever will be a "two stage" power amp that can
do all the things an amp ought to do. having said that, there are some
lovely things that can be done with two stages... i can admit that it might
be enough for someone! just not me. there are too many trade-offs and the
list of them has long been debated within this community. but, i'm getting
distracted. there are just a few misconceptions that i'd like to clear up,
or at least reinforce...
point #1: a cascode anything with a resistor load is a two (2) stage
circuit by itself, not a single stage. add an active load (constant current
source) and it becomes a three (3) stage circuit. likewise, "mu-follower",
"srpp", cascode follower ("white"), etc., are all two (2) stage circuits,
in and of themselves, NOT single stage circuits.
point #2: sensitivity is often a complex characteristic. an amp that
produces full output (clipping) with 0.25 volts rms input and an amp that
produces the same full output at 2 volts rms input can be subtly but
significantly different, just as any amp configuration with the same gain
can sound quite different. they *should* sound the same if it is a linear
model that we are going after (the best examples of each would have to,
imo) but there are issues here that go beyond "gain", and i think larry is
partly on to something here, although its not "transconductance" that
causes the deviation. it is sensitivity plus headroom/in all its possible
variations. how much headroom (swing/bias) including the power supply, how
many poles and how much deviation from the input is there in between stages
(this would obviously include filters, coupling networks, and the
loading/matching)? ever notice how different most amps sound at low levels
to high levels? you should see how most amps test between small and large
(into a resistor, much less a speaker!)... i think this is critical to what
the original poster was asking about. this is often not simply a distortion
issue, but a level dependent bandwidth, time domain and power supply issue.
the difference or similarity between the small signal and large signal
behavior of the amp, it is the meat and taters of amp design, imo. add to
this how the amp behaves when it clips.
point #3: a transformer is a complex coupling device. there is nothing
simple about it. compared to a capacitor, it is downright wiggly. not to
say that they can't be successfully implemented! just that it adds much
more to a circuit than just three L's and some pain-in-the ass C.
and thats it... as usual, i don't think this really is all that helpful,
for those who want a easy formula to build by. but it does make the search
more interesting!
jc
=========================================================================
From: dslagle@earthlink.net (dave slagle)
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 07:30:08 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n840
>One person's "explosive dynamics" is another's "aggressive behavior".
ain't that the truth...
i typed in a few thoughts before and hit the delete key, but what the heck...
as general starting points i'll offer a few personal observations...
the higher the GM of the tube the lower level signal you want it to deal with
the higher the gain of the tube the more you also want it up front
my current setup is 6C45 46 2a3 or
high gm low gm low gm
high mu lowish mu lower mu
i tried lots of driver tubes, at noise last year it was a 2A3, but the dull
lifeless comments came to mind... a 45 was worse, talk about dead... it
really seemed to come to life with the ST 46, but it was too alive... the
globe 46 brought everything into line.
i would have loved to try the 71A, because the flavor as i recall it seemed
about right, and the 10 also seems like it would fit well into that
position.
even though the 46 has a lower GM than the 2A3, i guess its the higher gain
that appeals to me???
another observation is in general you want a very different thing from a
driver and an amp...
by that i mean... the 6C45-46 in itself is an amp, but when a few folks
were over i did some quick swapping, and moved the OT's up a stage to give
me just that a 2 stage amp with a 46, it was god awful.... plopped a globe
45 in place of the 46, and it was musical again.... yet that same 6C45-45
amp as a driver for a 2A3 is dead and lifeless.
going back a few years when i had a similar situation....
at the time i had a 5842 IT coupled to a 1626 IT coupled to a 50... low DCR
PS and pricey outputs... when i snuck the outputs up a stage to make a 1626
amp (darling with a killer PS and outputs) it sucked... the original
darling stomped all over it... but add the extra IT and the 50 and it
bettered the darling???
don't know what this means, but it was my first tip to synergy between
tubes... and thats something that isn't hidden in the specs... you just
have to keep trying things.
dave
=========================================================================
From: "Larry D. Moore" <ldmoore@wcoil.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 07:48:43 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n840
I totally agree with jc. I just doidn't have the time to write and think
through writing what he did yesterday.
I will say, in additon, that one of the basis for my statement is based on
an amp that will be at ny noise. Following is a brief description:
Yea, jc I changed it yet again..:>)
The amp is a three stage stereo 2A3 amp built on a polished stainless steel
chassis. Therein are two B+ supplies. The first B+ supply is used for the
input and driver stages which are RC coupled. The respective tube
complement for these two stages are the 12A4 or 12B4, depending on gain
needs, and the 12B4. The first B+ supply consists of hexfreds and a CLC
filter network. The second B+ supply uses hexfreds again with a pair of
diode dampeners connected in parallel for slow turn on and low dcr and a
CLC filter network which feed the 2A3 output stages. The 2A3 filaments are
run on AC using a hum balancing pots. The ground of the second B+ supply
is referenced to a voltage divider across the first B+ supply facilitating
direct coupling of the driver and output stages. Output transformers are
custom Electraprint units.
Potential attendees should note that I spoke with Jack and he is adding
this opt to his standard list and there will a pair up for grabs at ny
noise too.
Basically, here's what happened chronologically. I built the amp this
summer as a two stage 46 amp. 5842 to 46. I wrote it up on the joelist.
It became somewhat popular. It was a 5842 rc coupled to a 46, to be more
specific. I used two power transfromers tied in parallel to reduce the
dcr, diode dampeners and CLC filteration. Then I built a 300B amp which
had three stages. 7119 rc to 7119 rc to 300B. I became disenchanted with
the 46 amp. So, several weeks ago I gutted it, added a choke between the
diode dampeners and couple more tube sockets in front of the ones already
there, rewired as described above. It is really killer!
So, now you know the history. I have exactly the same amp and can change
the input tube between a 12A4 and a 12B4. mus of 20 and 6.5 respectively.
Plate load resisitor is 47k so they are running with small amounts of
currrent. About 5mA, with the 12b4 if I recall. Bypassed 3k3 cathode
resistor.
So, there's your controlled experiment. The gain of either works in my
system. In fact, I would prefer to use the lower gain tube, if I thought
it sounded better. But, before anyone says, two of the same thing versus
two different things, the 12a4 is a 12b4 with the grid wound at difference
spacing, so even the tubes are real close.
Now, the difference in sonics is exactly as you describe in your
experience. In fact, I can relate to additonal experiences which are similar.
Now, you know the rest of the story. Come to noise and you can hear it
yourself!! Well, have fun comparing.
L.D. Moore
At 09:24 PM 3/22/01 -0500, you wrote:
>hey,
> i will jump in here only to add a few points... i'm not going to get into
>defending it one way or the other. it is my opinion, for the record so
>there can be no doubt as to where i stand, and it is still only an opinion,
>that there has never been nor ever will be a "two stage" power amp that can
>do all the things an amp ought to do. having said that, there are some
>lovely things that can be done with two stages... i can admit that it might
>be enough for someone! just not me. there are too many trade-offs and the
>list of them has long been debated within this community. but, i'm getting
>distracted. there are just a few misconceptions that i'd like to clear up,
>or at least reinforce...
>
>point #1: a cascode anything with a resistor load is a two (2) stage
>circuit by itself, not a single stage. add an active load (constant current
>source) and it becomes a three (3) stage circuit. likewise, "mu-follower",
>"srpp", cascode follower ("white"), etc., are all two (2) stage circuits,
>in and of themselves, NOT single stage circuits.
>
>point #2: sensitivity is often a complex characteristic. an amp that
>produces full output (clipping) with 0.25 volts rms input and an amp that
>produces the same full output at 2 volts rms input can be subtly but
>significantly different, just as any amp configuration with the same gain
>can sound quite different. they *should* sound the same if it is a linear
>model that we are going after (the best examples of each would have to,
>imo) but there are issues here that go beyond "gain", and i think larry is
>partly on to something here, although its not "transconductance" that
>causes the deviation. it is sensitivity plus headroom/in all its possible
>variations. how much headroom (swing/bias) including the power supply, how
>many poles and how much deviation from the input is there in between stages
>(this would obviously include filters, coupling networks, and the
>loading/matching)? ever notice how different most amps sound at low levels
>to high levels? you should see how most amps test between small and large
>(into a resistor, much less a speaker!)... i think this is critical to what
>the original poster was asking about. this is often not simply a distortion
>issue, but a level dependent bandwidth, time domain and power supply issue.
>the difference or similarity between the small signal and large signal
>behavior of the amp, it is the meat and taters of amp design, imo. add to
>this how the amp behaves when it clips.
>
>point #3: a transformer is a complex coupling device. there is nothing
>simple about it. compared to a capacitor, it is downright wiggly. not to
>say that they can't be successfully implemented! just that it adds much
>more to a circuit than just three L's and some pain-in-the ass C.
>
>and thats it... as usual, i don't think this really is all that helpful,
>for those who want a easy formula to build by. but it does make the search
>more interesting!
>
>jc
>
>
=========================================================================
From: "Larry D. Moore" <ldmoore@wcoil.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 07:58:46 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n840
>by that i mean... the 6C45-46 in itself is an amp, but when a few folks
>were over i did some quick swapping, and moved the OT's up a stage to give
>me just that a 2 stage amp with a 46, it was god awful.... plopped a globe
>45 in place of the 46, and it was musical again.... yet that same 6C45-45
>amp as a driver for a 2A3 is dead and lifeless.
I was there when this experiment was done. It wasn't subtle.
jc and Dave are right in that it isn't just one thing. In fact, it never
is. I just think in the circumstances described, I lean towards it being
transconductance as the highest probability explination.
Its all got to work together to be great. There is no building according
to what someone else wrote on a schematic and insuring suscess. Good yes,
great one can only judge themselves based on experience, time, cause and
effect and a never ending struggle to understand and explain what they hear
in an effort to move forward.
L.D. Moore
=========================================================================
From: Ken Gilbert <ride5000@ride.ri.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 08:26:37 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n840
>point #1: a cascode anything with a resistor load is a two (2) stage
>circuit by itself, not a single stage. add an active load (constant current
>source) and it becomes a three (3) stage circuit. likewise, "mu-follower",
>"srpp", cascode follower ("white"), etc., are all two (2) stage circuits,
>in and of themselves, NOT single stage circuits.
jc, by this reasoning is a pentode a two stage device? they behave so much
like cascodes it would be hard to argue otherwise... curves, characteristics,
etc, being so similar.
how about a plain old triode with a big choke load hanging off the
plate--almost a constant current source, right? one stage or two? is the
difference only attributed to the difference between an iron load and an active
one? does that constitute a "stage?"
how about if we put a diode in the cathode circuit of a plate-loaded triode?
now how many stages do we have??? 1.5?
i'm not sure how all of this matters, but i think my questions have merit.
ken
=========================================================================
From: thomas.mayer@philips.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 10:53:00 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n840
All,
I'm wondering where this discussion leaves my latest experiment with
simplicity: An integrated amp with just two transfromer coupled stages from
phono cartridge to loudspeakers. This was possible with a tube which was
intended for regulation purposes within color TVs, the 6HS5 with a mu of 300
and a rp of 4600 Ohms.
Sure not the best of all amps and flawed in quite some areas, but there is
something to such super simple designs which can't be had from more
complex approaches.
How come some people are so sure that certain qualities can only be
achieved by certain means ? Two stage or three stage design, high or
low transconductance. I learned during the last years that there is not
just one way. I've heard too many excellent two stage amps to accept, that
only three stage designs can do what an amp ought to do. And there are too
many good amps with low transconductance input tubes to rule out such
circuits.
I try to adapt my amps to the overall gain structure and sensitivity of the
system. If I need another stage, it gets it. If I don't need another stage I
won't add one just to get the right number.
Ciao ... Thomas
=========================================================================
From: "Eric Weitzman" <eweitzman@acm.org>
Subject: RE: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 11:02:45 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n840
Martinburm@aol.com said,
> one stage more and there is more pickup of acoustic feedback,
> which gives more life to the music too (even on the price of
> precision)
and John Levreault said,
> One person's "explosive dynamics" is another's "aggressive behavior".
Indeed.
I'm a little reluctant to add my two cents worth because I know so much
less about electronics than you guys, but I'd like to contribute another
datapoint to the discussion.
I've converted a PAS2 into a phono preamp with a switchable linestage
(parts upgraded and highly simplified.) So, I have a switchable
passive/active preamp. When active, it adds two extra 12AX7 gain stages
with global feedback around them. The input impedance seen by the 250K
pot is 100K (amp) when passive and 750K (linestage) when active.
How does it sound?
Active sounds warmer, "tube-ier", maybe even "more alive". But on close
listening, it smoothes out transients (bad), kills sibilance (good,
unless recorded with sibilant mikes), loses some very low level detail,
and displays much less spatial distinction between instruments and
vocalists. More "nice sounding" second order distortion, maybe?
Artifacts of NFB? I don't know, but that's "life".
Passive is more detailed, has a better soundstage, is more ruthless with
sibilance and poor recordings, altogether more revealing, but certainly
not "dead" by any means. I don't hear much difference in dynamics
between the two, the loss of so much realism in the active setup tends
to overwhelm my perception. Does passive sound "harder" because the
phono preamp or CD output opamps are swinging more voltage into slightly
less input impedance? Dunno, but all input sources display the same
sonic differences regardless of their output driver technology.
I only use the linestage when I need a bandaid for really bad digital
recordings or badly worn LPs, maybe a few times per month. Yet most
non-audiophool types who've heard my system initially prefer the warmer
sound of the linestage. I remain convinced that the articulation of the
passive setup is more revealing and closer to the recordings.
- - Eric
BTW, my amps are two-stage 6SN7 input/driver rc coupled 300B SE output.
I'm sorry that this 3-stage vs. 5-stage experience doesn't shed more
light onthe 2- vs. 3-stage discussion.
=========================================================================
From: Loesch Thorsten <TORSTEN.LOESCH@enhar-ha.nthames.nhs.uk>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 11:28:58 -0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n840
Hi all,
Eric wrote:
>Swing. Compared to max, that is.
Sorry to shoot that down a bit. The 2nd Halve of the 6DN7 was used
as Driver in both cases.
I take it the Phonostage was also the same. So swing remained the
same. Distortion however did not neccesarily as with the changed polarity
different disotion cancellation behavious happens.
I think I might also give Larry's "Gm" some credibility here. My
guess is that both effects are to balme, but from my experience now I'd put
80 Bucks on Polarity and 19.99 on Gm.... Oh and 1 cent on "swing",,,,
Just remember, "It ain't mean a thing, if it ain't got that
swing"...
Later T
=========================================================================
From: ToobWiz@aol.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 11:35:53 EST
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n840
In a message dated 03/23/2001 10:<BR15:<BR21 AM
Eastern Standard, peter.sikking@virgin.net writes:
> A question is: where is the volume control (resistive pot?) located?
>
> - If it is before the 6dj8, the 6dj8 is swinging 18 times (25 dB!) more
> current&voltage,
> and so is the cable to the power amp.
>
> - If it is after the 6dj8 on the pre-amp, your swinging 18 times more
> current&voltage
> through the cable with quite a different driving impedance.
Wait!
The attenuator is before the 6DJ8 (preamp output) so that tube swings less
than if it were after regardless of whether that first 6DN7 stage is in
there. Of course, the 6DJ8 swings more if the DN stage isn't in.
Carron
=========================================================================
From: Peter Sikking <peter.sikking@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 13:41:37 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n840
Thorsten wrote:
> Eric wrote:
>
> >Swing. Compared to max, that is.
>
> Sorry to shoot that down a bit. The 2nd Halve of the 6DN7 was used
> as Driver in both cases.
A question is: where is the volume control (resistive pot?) located?
- - If it is before the 6dj8, the 6dj8 is swinging 18 times (25 dB!) more current&voltage,
and so is the cable to the power amp.
- - If it is after the 6dj8 on the pre-amp, your swinging 18 times more current&voltage
through the cable with quite a different driving impedance.
So the driver tube is swinging the same I&V in both cases, but if you remove
that input
tube on the power amp some 'stuff' upstream from it has to work harder.
--ps/031
=========================================================================
From: Phil <tube@jump.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 18:35:58 -0600
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n840
Hi all,
Is this due to the non-linearity of the air? I know that in general,
when a note is struck by the musician it will either "push out" or
"pull in", causing a compression or rarefaction in the air. Ideally,
if the note from the musician "pushed out", then so should the
speaker. Easy enough to do by switching speaker leads. But in
addition, air does not compress or rarefy equally, so the resulting
wave in the air is a bit lopsided when compared to a pure sine wave,
it has some second order distortion. Is it the case that a single-
ended amp, since its tube has an output that is also "lopsided",
sounds right in one direction, but wrong in the other? I have no idea
if this means the voltage across the output tube should go down when
the speaker pushes out, or up when the speaker pushes out.
Phil
evaguido wrote:
> Hi all
>
> Thorsten is right. He touches a subject that I raised while ago, while lots
> of people were on distortion cancelation.
>
> Mind the phase of the distortion, not only the amplitude !
>
> Read T's mail well, I tend to say,
>
> regards
>
> Guido
> At 17:45 22-3-01 +0000, Loesch Thorsten wrote:
> >Hi all,
> >
> > > I have reconfigured my amps to defeat the first stage of
> > >amplification. They measure just as well as before, but they
> > >have died.
> >
> > Now I'm sure someone will call me a spoilsport, but removing one
> >inverting stage will reverse polarity. Wrong absolut polarity can have a
> >strong impact. Further, due to the interactions between SE output Stage and
> >Speaker Driver (cancellation of even harmonics) there is a "correct"
> >absolute polarity between Output stage and speaker, so just reversing the
> >Speakerleads will NOT correct the inverted polarity from the defeat of one
> >stage.
> >
> > I have only been able to really test all this throughly since
> >fitting a polarity switch to my Behringer digital EQ, but I find now that
> >absolute polarity effects tone, dynamics and soundstaging quite
> >substantially, certainly more than enough to count for "loosing the
> >magic"....
> >
> > Now I doubted both Allan Wright and Clark Johnson on the subject of
> >absolute polarity (based on my experience in Pro Audio where I found
> >polarity to matter only relative between mic's picking up the same session),
> >but I eat Texas midsummer 3 Day Roadkill Crow here....
> >
> > Polarity matters.
> >
> > Later T
> >
=========================================================================
From: jc@izone.com
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 19:17:04 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n840
At 08:26 AM 3/23/01 -0500, Ken Gilbert wrote:
>jc, by this reasoning is a pentode a two stage device? they behave so much
>like cascodes it would be hard to argue otherwise... curves, characteristics,
>etc, being so similar.
>
>how about a plain old triode with a big choke load hanging off the
>plate--almost a constant current source, right? one stage or two? is the
>difference only attributed to the difference between an iron load and an
active
>one? does that constitute a "stage?"
>
>how about if we put a diode in the cathode circuit of a plate-loaded triode?
>now how many stages do we have??? 1.5?
>
>i'm not sure how all of this matters, but i think my questions have merit.
>
>ken
>
you've answered most of your own questions but i'll add this: cascodes
behave similar to pentodes, not the same. tetrodes/pentodes draw screen
current, don't have heater to cathode voltage rating problems or
transconductance shift from varying heater voltage (between upper and lower
triodes), have different input capacities for screen and grid, don't cancel
even harmonics, and most importantly of all, tetrodes/pentodes are one
single active device, not two. a choke behaves "almost" like a current
source. its the almost that makes for the difference. a choke has no
feedback or variable input capacitance, or gain for that matter... it has a
frequency dependent performance, it craps out at low frequencies and it
rolls off your output signal at high frequencies. and it changes its Z in
between. active current sources actually behave quite differently, but the
biggest difference is still that the active stuff is ACTIVE. it ACTS on
what it is provided with(sorry for the lack of imaginitive analogy) which
is a much more complex set of variables than a choke, which only reacts. A
diode, is certainly way more complicated than a resistor, which has no
carrier mobility or voltage/current variable capacitance. Batteries are
also resistors (plus inductive capacitors too). Complicated resistors, but
not active. i say a silicon germanium diode is definitely semi-active! HA!
so you may be right about the 1.5 stage idea... the only difference between
cascaded and cascoded stages is how the current is distributed. they are
still multiple active stages. my point is that you don't get anything free.
i can say this too, from long bitter experience! and i think you are right
to ask: most questions do have merit, all except for the disingenuous ones.
maybe some of those too?
jc
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 20:23:55 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n840
Hi all
Thorsten is right. He touches a subject that I raised while ago, while lots
of people were on distortion cancelation.
Mind the phase of the distortion, not only the amplitude !
Read T's mail well, I tend to say,
regards
Guido
At 17:45 22-3-01 +0000, Loesch Thorsten wrote:
>Hi all,
>
> > I have reconfigured my amps to defeat the first stage of
> >amplification. They measure just as well as before, but they
> >have died.
>
> Now I'm sure someone will call me a spoilsport, but removing one
>inverting stage will reverse polarity. Wrong absolut polarity can have a
>strong impact. Further, due to the interactions between SE output Stage and
>Speaker Driver (cancellation of even harmonics) there is a "correct"
>absolute polarity between Output stage and speaker, so just reversing the
>Speakerleads will NOT correct the inverted polarity from the defeat of one
>stage.
>
> I have only been able to really test all this throughly since
>fitting a polarity switch to my Behringer digital EQ, but I find now that
>absolute polarity effects tone, dynamics and soundstaging quite
>substantially, certainly more than enough to count for "loosing the
>magic"....
>
> Now I doubted both Allan Wright and Clark Johnson on the subject of
>absolute polarity (based on my experience in Pro Audio where I found
>polarity to matter only relative between mic's picking up the same session),
>but I eat Texas midsummer 3 Day Roadkill Crow here....
>
> Polarity matters.
>
> Later T
>
=========================================================================
From: Peter Sikking <peter.sikking@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 23:21:22 +0000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n840
Carron wrote:
> The attenuator is before the 6DJ8 (preamp output) so that tube swings less
> than if it were after regardless of whether that first 6DN7 stage is in
> there. Of course, the 6DJ8 swings more if the DN stage isn't in.
Sorry, I did cut one corner in my formulation:
The attenuator is before the 6dj8, so when the first 6dn7 stage is bypassed,
the 6dj8 is swinging more I&V, 10-18 times (20-25 dB) more depending
on the amplfication of the bypassed stage.
So the headroom of the 6dj8 stage is reduced by 20-25 dB, and how much (if any)
is left?
Is there a big (>1uF) coupling cap on the output of the pre, and a small
(~.1uF) cap
after the first 6dn7 stage? Maybe the 6dj8 is having a harder time driving the same
voltage swing through a cap that's an order of magnitude bigger. But then again,
maybe the output impedance of the 6dj8 stage (Rp // R load) is an order of magnitude
lower than that of the first 6dn7 stage to make up for it.
So I do think that Eric has a point when he says: what about swing?
--ps/031
=========================================================================
From: "Thomas Sylvester" <TRS@carlsmith.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 15:09:27 -1000
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n841
Isn't any distortion that is caused by inequalities between compression and rarefraction already in
the recording? And doesn't the difference between your speakers "pushing" at you vs. "pulling" away
from you add aditional distortion?
>>> Phil <tube@jump.net> 03/23/01 02:35PM >>>
Hi all,
Is this due to the non-linearity of the air? I know that in general,
when a note is struck by the musician it will either "push out" or
"pull in", causing a compression or rarefaction in the air. Ideally,
if the note from the musician "pushed out", then so should the
speaker. Easy enough to do by switching speaker leads. But in
addition, air does not compress or rarefy equally, so the resulting
wave in the air is a bit lopsided when compared to a pure sine wave,
it has some second order distortion. Is it the case that a single-
ended amp, since its tube has an output that is also "lopsided",
sounds right in one direction, but wrong in the other? I have no idea
if this means the voltage across the output tube should go down when
the speaker pushes out, or up when the speaker pushes out.
=========================================================================
From: dslagle@earthlink.net (dave slagle)
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 19:58:24 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n841
this is what johannes "phase boy" chiu demonstrated to me and a group of
others... and as i recall it has everything to do with what you suggest
below.
the whole phase thing takes education of your ears to determine... but he
was amazing at identifying it... me i still am hit and miss...
i think his claim was that the final stage amp speake rphase was thi
important thing, and that absolute phase was less of an issue... my dac at
the time had phase reversal, and the differences were nowhere near what the
reversing of speaker leads did for the sound.
dave
>Is this due to the non-linearity of the air? I know that in general,
>when a note is struck by the musician it will either "push out" or
>"pull in", causing a compression or rarefaction in the air. Ideally,
>if the note from the musician "pushed out", then so should the
>speaker. Easy enough to do by switching speaker leads. But in
>addition, air does not compress or rarefy equally, so the resulting
>wave in the air is a bit lopsided when compared to a pure sine wave,
>it has some second order distortion. Is it the case that a single-
>ended amp, since its tube has an output that is also "lopsided",
>sounds right in one direction, but wrong in the other? I have no idea
>if this means the voltage across the output tube should go down when
>the speaker pushes out, or up when the speaker pushes out.
>
>Phil
>
>evaguido wrote:
>
>> Hi all
>>
>> Thorsten is right. He touches a subject that I raised while ago, while lots
>> of people were on distortion cancelation.
>>
>> Mind the phase of the distortion, not only the amplitude !
>>
>> Read T's mail well, I tend to say,
>>
>> regards
>>
>> Guido
>> At 17:45 22-3-01 +0000, Loesch Thorsten wrote:
>> >Hi all,
>> >
>> > > I have reconfigured my amps to defeat the first stage of
>> > >amplification. They measure just as well as before, but they
>> > >have died.
>> >
>> > Now I'm sure someone will call me a spoilsport, but removing one
>> >inverting stage will reverse polarity. Wrong absolut polarity can have a
>> >strong impact. Further, due to the interactions between SE output Stage and
>> >Speaker Driver (cancellation of even harmonics) there is a "correct"
>> >absolute polarity between Output stage and speaker, so just reversing the
>> >Speakerleads will NOT correct the inverted polarity from the defeat of one
>> >stage.
>> >
>> > I have only been able to really test all this throughly since
>> >fitting a polarity switch to my Behringer digital EQ, but I find now that
>> >absolute polarity effects tone, dynamics and soundstaging quite
>> >substantially, certainly more than enough to count for "loosing the
>> >magic"....
>> >
>> > Now I doubted both Allan Wright and Clark Johnson on the subject of
>> >absolute polarity (based on my experience in Pro Audio where I found
>> >polarity to matter only relative between mic's picking up the same session),
>> >but I eat Texas midsummer 3 Day Roadkill Crow here....
>> >
>> > Polarity matters.
>> >
>> > Later T
>> >
=========================================================================
From: Paul Joppa <pj@bottlehead.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 20:32:29 -0800
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n841
Sorry this is so late in the thread - I've had ISP problems...
"Larry D. Moore" offered:
> This is common. It has nothing to do with gain. The difference that you
> experience is call transconductance. Typically, low mu tubes, such as the
> second half of the 6DN7, don't have much transconductance. The first
> section of the 6DN7, however, does. Thus, when you add it in it fixes the
> problem.
I hate to rain on this parade, but according to my GE "Essential
Characteristics" the transconductance of the first triode (the
one that "made the amp sound better" is 2500 uS at 8mA, while
the second triode has 7700 uS of transconductance at 41mA. (At
15.4, it's not especially low mu either.) In fact most of these
TV vertical output dual triodes have a modest transconductance
first section and a higher-transconductance second section.
- -Paul Joppa
=========================================================================
From: John Levreault <jlevro@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 09:54:32 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n841
"Sellek, Grant (TSA)" wrote:
>
> I posted earlier my confusion about this -- it is not that I
> disagree, I simply don't get it. THe OPt secondary is floating,
> so what is different about reversing the speaker wires other
> than purely reversing phase?
It's got to do with the phase of the harmonics from the output tube. To
quote Johannes:
"...as the output device goes into saturation (i.e. draws more current),
the speaker cones should be moving out toward the listener."
This tends to "...make the positive peaks bigger...", suggesting that
the second harmonic is in phase with the fundamental. This follows
directly from the curvature of the plate transfer characteristics of the
output tube.
Apparently the archives only go back to 1997. Johannes' post was from 21
June 1994. (Has it been that long?)
JL
>
> Grant
>
> Grant Sellek, Adelaide, Australia
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: dslagle@earthlink.net [mailto:dslagle@earthlink.net]
> >Sent: Saturday, 24 March 2001
> >
> >i think his claim was that the final stage amp speake rphase was thi
> >important thing, and that absolute phase was less of an
> >issue...
> >
> >>> At 17:45 22-3-01 +0000, Loesch Thorsten wrote:
> >>> ... Further, due to the interactions between SE
> >output Stage and
> >>> >Speaker Driver (cancellation of even harmonics) there is a
> >"correct"
> >>> >absolute polarity between Output stage and speaker, so
> >just reversing the
> >>> >Speakerleads will NOT correct the inverted polarity from
> >the defeat of one stage.
=========================================================================
From: "BobC" <bobcx@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 13:14:28 -0500
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n841
Mike asked me to post this to the group...
Hi Bob:
If you'd be kind enough. Please put this partial post up on Joenet in the
thread wherein discussion of an amps response and sound quality as a
function
of power level (volume).
In my opinion... this phenomenon (which I too have heard) is exasperated in
the case of poor quality engineering in the trans as well as related circuit
matters.
I offer it (including my biases) as food for thought.
Please post for me along with my message as stated above.
text of partial post:
another point made by Paul Joppa was;
>>2) a valuable output is the current in the output tube, which is constant
in the passband but at low frequencies can act a little wild. Remember the
available current is limited, so a flat response that demands 3 times the
current will have severe bass problems.<<
This observation is quite keen I suspect. It will, imo, really make itself
known in the case of conventional airgapped output tranneys with rather
(shall I be kind?) limited primary inductance. If you take as your
requirement the "small signal" inductance required simply to maintain a
given
(say) minus 3 db point in response with the tube (with low r sub p) then...
the following obtains...the "load impedance" presented to the tube is too
small (well below the nominal primary impedance of the trans) and the phase
shift of the load impedance is quite disastrous.
Now... when you try to deliver actual real world power into this distorted
load line the tube must deliver oodles and oodles of current to the reactive
component of the loadline which (without careful output trans design) can
actallly be much larger in magnitude than the resistive component of the
load
line to the tube.
This is (forgive my imprudence) the fact that the NY boys have ignored for
nearly a decade.
Now the power factor... when you were assuming a totally resistive (ideal)
loadline both in magnitude and phase... when you were assuming fallaciously
that the airgapped output trans would produce that 5K "LINEAR" load line
that
you drew across the plate curves... well... it's not reality. Put in a
trans... put in a trans with inadequate primary inductance and watch the
loadline go to hell and watch your performance (real world here folks) go to
hell hand-in-hand with the distorted, reactive, phase shifted loadline
presented to the tube by the output transformer at low fequencies.
What happens to your power factor? Is it ONE as you assumed when you drew
the
ideal purely resistive load line across the plate curves? And then they
wonder why the output trans will sound different as the volume increases?
The answer is a no brainer. Try delivering real world power into this
distorted "load impedance" and the tube is going to start to freak out...
now pick up on the "current" demands that Paul is pointing toward and at. As
an aside, thanks Volt-secs for providing insight into (during one of our
phone conversations) the consideration and inclusion of "power factor" into
the equation.shew... could I have been any more subtle?
MSL
an additonal note or point to think about: (this not in post on
Bottlehead's
site)
P.S. It is the linearity and stability of the loadline to the anode that
counts and like (or analogous to) a speaker with a wildly varying highly
reacive load... the amp can never quite get a hold of the speaker.
Likewise... if the real world "load impedance" of the OT is highly reactive
and varies both in magnitude as well as phase in the audio band proper...
the
result is a "bumpy" performance as noted by other contributors to this
thread
on Joenet.
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: RE: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 15:29:10 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n841
At 21:33 24-3-01 +1030, Sellek, Grant (TSA) wrote:
>I posted earlier my confusion about this -- it is not that I
>disagree, I simply don't get it. THe OPt secondary is floating,
>so what is different about reversing the speaker wires other
>than purely reversing phase?
The interaction of several non linear parts in the system changes as well,
changing final distortion pattern.
Guido
>Grant
>
>Grant Sellek, Adelaide, Australia
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: dslagle@earthlink.net [mailto:dslagle@earthlink.net]
>>Sent: Saturday, 24 March 2001
>>
>>i think his claim was that the final stage amp speake rphase was thi
>>important thing, and that absolute phase was less of an
>>issue...
>>
>>>> At 17:45 22-3-01 +0000, Loesch Thorsten wrote:
>>>> ... Further, due to the interactions between SE
>>output Stage and
>>>> >Speaker Driver (cancellation of even harmonics) there is a
>>"correct"
>>>> >absolute polarity between Output stage and speaker, so
>>just reversing the
>>>> >Speakerleads will NOT correct the inverted polarity from
>>the defeat of one stage.
=========================================================================
From: evaguido <EvaGuido@iaehv.nl>
Subject: Re: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 18:46:45 +0100
Source: Sound Digest Archive v02.n841
dear all,
Long ago (Think it was even in 1993) I studied on interactions of non
linear systems
I have a 1 page word document with simplified mathematics. Can I post that
? It shows exactly what happens.
What happens with attachements send to the list ?
Guido
At 09:54 24-3-01 -0500, John Levreault wrote:
>"Sellek, Grant (TSA)" wrote:
>>
>> I posted earlier my confusion about this -- it is not that I
>> disagree, I simply don't get it. THe OPt secondary is floating,
>> so what is different about reversing the speaker wires other
>> than purely reversing phase?
>
>It's got to do with the phase of the harmonics from the output tube. To
>quote Johannes:
>
>"...as the output device goes into saturation (i.e. draws more current),
>the speaker cones should be moving out toward the listener."
>
>This tends to "...make the positive peaks bigger...", suggesting that
>the second harmonic is in phase with the fundamental. This follows
>directly from the curvature of the plate transfer characteristics of the
>output tube.
>
>Apparently the archives only go back to 1997. Johannes' post was from 21
>June 1994. (Has it been that long?)
>
>JL
>
>
>>
>> Grant
>>
>> Grant Sellek, Adelaide, Australia
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: dslagle@earthlink.net [mailto:dslagle@earthlink.net]
>> >Sent: Saturday, 24 March 2001
>> >
>> >i think his claim was that the final stage amp speake rphase was thi
>> >important thing, and that absolute phase was less of an
>> >issue...
>> >
>> >>> At 17:45 22-3-01 +0000, Loesch Thorsten wrote:
>> >>> ... Further, due to the interactions between SE
>> >output Stage and
>> >>> >Speaker Driver (cancellation of even harmonics) there is a
>> >"correct"
>> >>> >absolute polarity between Output stage and speaker, so
>> >just reversing the
>> >>> >Speakerleads will NOT correct the inverted polarity from
>> >the defeat of one stage.
=========================================================================
From: "Sellek, Grant (TSA)" <Grant.Sellek@transport.sa.gov.au>
Subject: RE: [JN] Less is more???? Not always! (long)
Date: Sat, 24 Ma